Healing incurable disease—with Christian Science

The transcribed text has been edited for clarity.

In her opening comments, Marian makes the point that the Scriptural promises that God will heal us aren’t just comforting religious theories; they are practical and provable. Mary Baker Eddy’s book Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures states that “with God all things are possible” (p. 180 ) and Marian says, “From the standpoint that with God all things are possible, the term ‘incurable’ becomes something of a misnomer. ... Christian Science tells us that the cure has been discovered and it has been demonstrated with convincing proof.” During this lively chat, Marian responds to questions about how to cure cases of diabetes, cancer, migraine headaches, and other health concerns. She explains the role of a practitioner in healing and addresses confusion over whether or not Christian Science and medical treatment are compatible.

Rosalie Dunbar: Today’s topic is, “Healing incurable disease—with Christian Science.” Our guest is Marian English, a practitioner and teacher of Christian Science in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Marian has traveled throughout the United States, Canada, and Europe, speaking at healthcare facilities, prisons, detention centers, and homeless shelters. She has also contributed articles to the Christian Science magazine that you can explore on this Website—but do that after the chat, please. Marian, do you have some thoughts to get us started?

Marian English: It’s certainly nice to be with you today, and to talk about this particular topic, because it is a fearful thing for many people. There are so many Scriptural promises of healing and they’re very comforting. And the thing is that they’re not just religious theory--like in the Psalms it says that God is one “Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases” (103:3 ). They are practical and provable. They’ve never gone out of date and they don’t limit God’s healing power.

Science and Health emphasizes the healing effect of prayer, and it’s the kind of prayer that it teaches that makes these Biblical promises just come alive. For instance, it states: “The prayer that reforms the sinner and heals the sick is an absolute faith that all things are possible to God,--a spiritual understanding of Him, an unselfed love” (p. 1 ). Now from that standpoint—that with God “all things are possible,” the term incurable becomes a bit of a misnomer. If the man and woman God created were really hard-wired for incurability, we wouldn’t keep trying so hard to find a cure, would we?

Rosalie: No.

Marian: The present attitude seems to be: hopefully there is a cure, we just haven’t found it yet. Now here’s where Christian Science has something relevant to offer. It tells us that the cure has been discovered, and it has been demonstrated with convincing proof. For example, way back in the Scriptures it tells us that Abraham, Moses, and the prophets—they all healed diseases considered incurable. And certainly Christ Jesus and his followers consistently cured the incurable--not only disease, but conditions like hopeless poverty, and birth defects, blindness, even death itself. Now once something has been cured, it seems logical that incurable is no longer a valid term. Wouldn’t you agree? Rosalie: I do.

Marian: So today, the question is: Is it possible to follow that line of spiritual healing that runs throughout the Scriptures? And Christian Science answers emphatically: Yes. And here’s how. In Mary Baker Eddy’s major work, Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures, there’s a chapter titled, “Christian Science Practice” that gives definite rules on how to heal.

Now the word practice in this context doesn’t always mean doing something over and over until we finally get it right, like practicing scales on a piano, for example. It really has the sense of putting into effect what we know, to the fullest degree possible. So knowing the perfect nature of God, Spirit, and His power, and becoming increasingly aware of our own true selves as having His spiritual nature, His Christly nature, being made in His likeness—now that’s the prayer that gives us a solid basis for spiritual healing. So, maybe our question for today might include how to remove fear of the label “incurable,” and wake up to the very comforting assurance that with God all things really are possible.

Rosalie: Well, that’s really helpful. We have a number of questions. Would you like to get started on that?

Marian: I would indeed--looking forward to it.

Rosalie: Julie from Bellevue, Washington sends in the first one, and it is: “In your experience as a Christian Science healer, what has been especially helpful in bringing about the healing of an incurable disease?”

Marian: I love this question because it brings out such an important point that Christian Science teaches. When I’m facing something that has the label “incurable,” if I try to heal an incurable disease, I can feel overwhelmed. I can feel like this can’t be done—how can we do this? But from an entirely different standpoint, that I’m not trying to make matter better, but I am making apparent what God has already done, then it becomes doable. I’m not doing something spectacular, I’m simply praying to see what God has already done. Remember, that God made everything that was made. He made man in His image and likeness--that includes male and female. And when I start from that standpoint of making God’s work apparent, like it says in the Psalms, “Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law” (119:18 ), then it becomes doable and not so formidable.

Here’s an example. Recently, within the past year, there was a growth on my face, a skin growth, and it was rapidly growing, and I was having to keep it bandaged--it was beginning to bleed. And when I looked at that growth, instead of trying to heal a skin growth, I decided that I was going to see what God had made of man, and bring out the beautiful power and beauty of Soul in man, made in His likeness. So my attempts, my prayers, were always, “Father, you show me what You have done, and that’s what I will do.” And within a few weeks, maybe not that long, part of that growth fell away, and then within a day or two the rest of it fell away, and it has remained permanent. There’s just nothing but new skin underneath. It’s a remarkable example of the method of Christian Science. Don’t try to heal matter. Make Spirit apparent.

Rosalie: I think that’s one of the challenges, when people are trying to deal with a physical situation, as the growth, or maybe something that’s painful or scary in some other way, can you offer a thought on how you make that mental shift from focusing on the material condition to really being able to look at things spiritually?

Marian: Oh, it is truly a mental shift. In fact, it’s an interesting thing, the way you’ve explained that, Rosalie, because one of the important statements in Science and Healthis this: “The effect of this Science is to stir the human mind to a change of base, on which it may yield to the harmony of the divine Mind” (p. 162 ), speaking of a term for God. That stir of the human mind, that change of base, is what does it. That willingness to say, “I’m not trying to heal something incurable. I’m trying to worship God. I’m praising Him. I am bringing out His work. I am loving His work.” And because of that, I know that He’s the power behind every prayer that I pray. Without that, we’re doing what our good friends the doctors in the medical profession are trying to do, only we’re doing it without all the equipment that they have. It’s a level in which we’re not competing at all with the medical profession. What we’re doing is changing our thought to know that the First Commandment to “have no other gods before [us]” is valid, is powerful, and we’re making apparent that which God is. Prayer is how we make that shift of thought--prayer that loves God and what He has done.

Rosalie: Now this is from Butch in Indiana, and he’s saying: “I have two incurable diseases for which I take medicines. Doesn’t Christian Science sort of shun me, or put a stigma on me for taking medicine, making it more impossible for me to be healed through prayer? I don’t remember Christ Jesus ever questioning a patient as to whether he was taking medicine or not--the same for Mrs. Eddy. She just healed the person without interrogating him as to his doctoring habits. How would you suggest I pray about this to reverse the belief in incurability and to be healed?”

Marian: Oh, I love this question. Actually, Jesus did pay some attention to the mixture of material methods with the spiritual prayer. Remember, on the cross he refused the medication that was being offered. He took the water, and the vinegar, but he did not accept the medication that was supposed to ease the pain. There was a reason for that. He was not going to mix the two methods. One was based on man’s spiritual status as the image and likeness of God, and the other is based on man as a material mortal. We take from his example the way to deal with incurability. When he went to the primitive hospitals of his day, there was a man waiting by the pool of Bethesda, and when the water was troubled, the first one in was supposed to be healed. He healed the man on the spot, but there’s no indication he went back or that he healed anybody else there.

It’s an interesting thing, though, I got a call many years ago from someone who was in a medical facility and taking medication, was being given a lot of heavy medication, and she wondered if I would pray for her in Christian Science. I explained to her lovingly that the two methods—one based on spiritual man as God’s image and likeness, the other based on matter--really don’t mix. It’s kind of like mixing milk and house paint. It’s no longer any good to drink and you can’t paint the house with it either. So I explained that to her, but I said, we can talk. Christian Science certainly does not shun anyone in need. We have a deep heart of compassion for anyone in need, whatever their preferred method of healing is. So she called. I said, “We’ll just talk. But there’s only one thing. I’m not going to talk about the problem, not going to talk about the medication or the doctor. I want to talk about God. That’s all I’ll talk about.” And she agreed to meet my condition. And that’s what we did.

We talked at length about God and His power and His presence and His deep love, and the healings that occur throughout the Bible, and the promise that Jesus gave us, that they who believe on the works I do, they’ll be doing it too—”He that believeth on me, the works that I do, shall he do also” to put it accurately from John (14:12 ). And before long she decided that it was her decision that she would not take the medication anymore, and then we continued to talk about God. And first thing you know, she was out of that facility, and she rented a room, and she continued to make progress. It was a wonderful example of the spiritual progress that we make if we will begin with God—not with a problem, but begin with God. I can tell this individual who asked this question, know that you are loved. Know that God and everyone who worships God has that sense of great love for you and encouragement. You’re privileged to use whatever method you choose to use, but the fact is that God is always with us, and is as close to us as our next thought.

Rosalie: This is from a site visitor in London and he says: “One hears of so many people who have cancer. How can one best protect oneself against this belief, and what can one be thinking about whenever this word is mentioned or whenever it comes to mind?”

Marian: This is one of the diseases today that has the most fear attached to it because people think of it as incurable. But the fact is there have been many cases of cancer being healed. In Christian Science those ideas that bring about this healing have a way of dissolving the fear first. Fear, you know, is the foundation of disease. That’s what Christian Science teaches and I’ve found that to be true. But when we realize that fear is what needs to be cast out, as it says in the Scriptures: “Perfect love casteth out fear” (I John 4:18 ).

Science and Health reminds us, “When fear disappears, the foundation of disease is gone” (p. 368 ). And without that foundation, it crumples. In the practice of removing fear by the perfect Love, which constitutes the nature of God, I’ve found that painful lumps have dissolved, I’ve found that tumors have dissolved, I’ve found that skin growths have fallen away--that there have been so many examples that were not medically diagnosed but I knew that the patient, or the person calling for help, was afraid of that very thing—cancer. And it was the fear that was removed.

Rosalie: Thanks, and I’ve just remembered as you were talking, that we do have some of the testimonies of people who have been healed of cancer on the Website. So after the chat, just do the search on the Website and search for “cancer” and you’ll come across several testimonies, including some that were medically diagnosed.

Marian: And they are in books, too, that you can get from the Christian Science Reading Room. For instance, in one that I was reviewing recently—it’s called, Healing Spiritually, it’s the name of the book—and one of the examples that it gives is a man who was diagnosed with an incurable disease. It doesn’t mention what it is, but it could well have been that. He accepted the verdict about himself—that it was incurable—but decided that before he died, he wanted to know as much about God as he possibly could. So he took the Concordance to Mary Baker Eddy’s writings and started to look up all the references about God. And before he was halfway through with the study, he found himself healed.

Rosalie: Thanks for mentioning that, Marian. Now Em from Atlanta says: “Even though we don’t normally think of these items in the category with incurable diseases, most people feel they just need to put up with these conditions”--and those conditions are the idea of allergies and inherited conditions. And she’s asking if we could share some thoughts on that subject.

Marian: To put up with something that God didn’t give you, is to put up with a mistake. When we’re working out our checkbook, we don’t put up with mistakes. We want the accuracy of the law that backs arithmetic to be stated in our dealings with our everyday life. Why would we put up with something in our own health? You don’t have to put up with those things. I know that before I became acquainted with Christian Science I had a tendency to have colds every year, and difficult ones like flu that were medically diagnosed because I was not a Christian Scientist at the time. And when I became a Christian Scientist I realized I did not have to put up with those things. It was not something that I was expected to do by God, and therefore I took seriously what Science and Health tells us when it says, “Stand porter at the door of thought” (p. 392 ), accepting only those things that we expect to bring forth in our bodily conditions and reject the rest of them. And I did that. And I was very surprised when the next time I had symptoms that I had experienced before, they simply disappeared, because I was not going to accept that about myself.

The same thing can be true of anything that seems to be inherited. Actually an inheritance, Rosalie, is really a very good thing but it’s on a different basis. In the human experience, sometimes we’re expected to rely or to accept inheritance as something bad coming from some ancestor or parents or grandparents—someplace—which makes the innocent baby a victim of everything that has gone before him. But in the Bible, we’re “joint-heirs with Christ” (Rom. 8:17 ). The true inheritance is from God. So once again, that’s that shift of thought, stirring the human mind to a change of base in which it may yield to the inheritance that we’re given from God, the inheritance of all things that are good.

Rosalie: That’s perfect. Now this is from Dee from California and she says: “How does one not become discouraged after many years of praying about a physical problem with a practitioner and not having a healing? I feel I must not have the faith of a grain of mustard seed or the understanding to pray for myself or others.”

Marian: I would like to ask that individual a question. I’m wondering if during this time working with a practitioner and working with the spiritual truths that show so many outstanding healings in the Bible and in the history of Christian Science, I’m wondering if this individual learned anything new about God? The reason I ask is in my own experience I had a healing which didn’t come easily and it certainly didn’t come quickly. This was a period of years. And during this healing I would have some revelation of something about God. I can’t tell you one right off the top of my head, but there were so many of them. And I would think each time, “Oh, this is the healing.” Because that’s what healing is, it’s a new insight into God’s nature, and therefore the nature of His likeness, man, and that applies to me, specifically, and very practically brings me healing. But it didn’t. I was continuing to not only still have the condition, but it was getting worse. And one day I realized that all of the things that had come to me during that time were pointing towards the full, complete healing. And that I had the right to take all of those insights, all of those revelations, and be so grateful what I was learning about God--and myself.

In fact, that experience was introducing me to myself. In other words, I was introducing my thought to myself as the image and likeness of God, with God-given dominion. And when I realized that, and began applying them to myself, all put together, everything that I had learned, then the healing came. It was a wonderful experience of listening, going through a wilderness, but finding insights, brilliant lights of ideas that were coming to me, and putting them all together, realizing how much I had gained.

So don’t be discouraged-- and as a matter of fact, if you’re finding yourself getting discouraged, think of those Israelites who wandered for forty years. And all during that time they were seeing wonderful examples of healing. Leprosy was healed. Snakebite was healed. The manna showed up for breakfast, and the quails showed up just in time for supper, water came out of the rocks—wonderful healings were going on. And some of them did get discouraged, and I’m wondering why. They’d seen some wonderful examples and wonderful insights into God’s presence with them right there in the wilderness. And discouragement is not a spiritual quality, it is not a quality that goes with the image and likeness of God. Right there is the red light flashing, saying, “Change that discouragement. Replace it with courage and fidelity to God’s presence,” and you’ll get to your healing.

Rosalie: Yes. Now, we’ve had quite a few questions about diabetes, and of course that’s a disease that is very much in the news these days. This one from Linda—it’s kind of long, I’ll just mention it briefly: “I’ve been suffering greatly with the challenge of diabetes and the damage it continues to take on me. I lost sight in one eye while working in Science and have cloudy vision in the other, so I’m considered legally blind.” And she goes on to describe other things. “Because it would seem that I’ve gotten worse working in Science, I’ve had to resort to medicines. Can you tell me how to get back on track? I have lost so much faith, and feel desperate and fearful that my other eye will go completely dark. Thank you for your insight.” And as I said, there’re other questions about diabetes so many we could only answer that one now.

Marian: Well, that’s a good question because it is so uppermost on public thought. It’s in the media, and it’s being talked about considerably. My heart goes out to anyone who deals with this. Certainly we deal with it in the public practice of Christian Science. It reminds me of an experience I had a few years ago when I was lecturing about these issues. I was asked to speak to a group of about a hundred emergency medical personnel. The question was focused on a case of diabetes. And I thought, you know I would like to know if there are any cases I could just quickly put my fingers on through healing in Christian Science. So I called a resource center for help, and within five minutes I had three and could have had many more—three examples of diabetes and all of them were medically diagnosed in which the healing had taken place through Christian Science. The healings were all different. The ideas that came to them were all different, but the point that I’m trying to make is don’t label yourself as an incurable diabetic. That’s a label that doesn’t belong to you as the image and likeness of God. It’s a false label and it’s a label of fear.

When you mentioned fear and discouragement and anticipation of something getting worse and losing something that’s precious to you, those are the red lights flashing, telling me what needs to be healed. It’s those very qualities that don’t belong to you as the image and likeness of God, and need to be replaced with the spiritual courage, strength, and joy, and peace that do belong to you, to say nothing of God-given dominion. To me, dominion means spiritual power to refuse to accept any other identity for myself, other than the image and likeness of God--dominion over any other concept of myself. And when we take that sense of ourselves and our identities and demonstrate with every thought that we are the image and likeness of God, then we begin to see things happen. We begin to see the healing come. We begin to see those mental qualities of discouragement yielding to the love of God and His Christ.

Jesus didn’t ask whether a disease were incurable or not, he just healed it. And I think that in the practice of Christian Science healing, that’s what we do, too. We don’t ask if something is incurable, we simply take where the patient’s thought is and begin replacing it with such joy and such conviction that the image and likeness of God who is Love and entirely good, cannot have something bad happen to him. There have been many healings of diabetes in the history of Christian Science.

Rosalie: Ann from Florida has a helpful question. “When something seems so real over a long period of time, how can it be addressed?”

Marian: When it seems real over a long period of time—for instance, you had a closet in your home and the door has been shut for years. And it’s been pitch dark in there, absolutely dark, no pinpoint of light. How long, when you open that door, does it take for the light to enter? It might have been going on for years, that dark closet, but the minute the light shines through an open door, that darkness is gone. Didn’t matter how long it was shut--could have been shut yesterday, could have been shut five years ago, it doesn’t matter. When the door is opened, the light flows in. That light is Christ. Jesus said, speaking of his divine nature—Christ--”I am the light of the world” (John 8:12 ), and then he turned to his followers and he said, “Ye are the light of the world.” Don’t hide your light under a bushel (see Matt. 5:14, 15 ).

So when something seems very real to us for a long time, the moment we begin to understand our identity as “joint-heirs with Christ,” and Christ is coming to us all the time, giving us messages from God, telling us that we are His beloved sons and daughters, when that light is shining on a problem, it no longer seems so formidable, no longer seems so incurable, no longer seems so dark. We deal with it with Christ.

Rosalie: Linda from Connecticut says: “How do you pray about ongoing pain, and the fear that accompanies it at times? How have you prayed about fear and pain successfully?”

Marian: I once had a very painful condition—well, I’ve done that many times—but in this particular instance I referred to something in Science and Health. It’s on page 391 and I’m going to just quickly turn to that page. It says: “Banish the belief that you can possibly entertain a single intruding pain which cannot be ruled out by the might of Mind, and in this way you can prevent the development of pain in the body. No law of God hinders this result.” Strong word, banish. It says, “Banish the belief that you can possibly entertain . . . pain,” so when you start with the belief, and banish the belief, the fear, the doubt, the uncertainty—banish that—by replacing it with the certainty of God’s love, then you can stop that development of pain. And I’ve seen it happen.

That’s what happened that instance that I mentioned when I had a very severe pain. And it came on me quite suddenly, and I was fairly new in Christian Science, proving one more thing, that you don’t have to be an old hand at this. You can just be barely acquainted with these ideas and put them to work for yourself. Well, this pain was so severe and so sudden that I almost fell down, and I sat down to keep from falling down, and I thought to myself: “Wouldn’t it be wonderful right while the pain is raging, wouldn’t it be wonderful if everybody in the whole world would quit believing in the power of pain, and recognize the power of God in which there is no pain? Say at a given signal in five minutes, a bell rings, and everybody’s going to quit believing in that.” And that was just kind of wishful thinking, but right after that thought came this message: “Five minutes, why wait? ‘Now are we the sons of God’ “ (I John 3:2 ). And that pain just dissolved, it disappeared. I’ve seen that happen many times when pain is suggesting itself or developing some place, just banish the belief that we can possibly be victims, enslaved to pain, and do it from the standpoint of God’s power. Then we can prevent that pain. Many times I’ve just seen it dissolve right before my eyes.

Rosalie: Now this is from Alistair who’s writing from London, England. He says: “In her Rudimental Divine Science, Mary Baker Eddy states that ‘The emphatic purpose of Christian Science is the healing of sin’ (p. 2 ). In Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures, Mrs. Eddy refers to, ‘. . . the higher mission of the Christ-power to take away the sins of the world’ (p. 150 ). What is the connection between the destruction of sin and freedom from disease?”

Marian: What a good question this one is, and there is a definite connection because sin is the belief in many gods and many minds, many lives, many loves. Sin is the belief that God is not all, as the Bible clearly declares Him to be, but there’s something else. It’s a mixture. It’s the mixture of—remember that tree of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil in the Bible that we’re warned against? That’s the sin of believing that good and evil mix in God and therefore in His likeness. The fact is, sin does not mix with God and it is not known to God. He is of purer eyes than to behold iniquity (see Hab. 1:13 ). Sin is the belief that turns out to be kind of a wilderness in which we are subject to fears and doubts and uncertainties, and it is a belief that God is not all there is, but there is another power as well. And that leads to a fear that there is a disease and it can get me.

Now when we go back to the very roots of disease, which is the sin of believing in another power, and when we replace that with the absolute faith that God is good, and with God all things are possible, and we live it, it’s not theory to us, we live it just as well as we can, then we are removing the roots of disease. Disease has its roots in fear and sin—the belief in another power, the power of evil, the power that something bad can happen to me. Christian Science teaches the prevention of disease in just that way by eliminating sin just as quickly and as fast and efficiently as we can.

The ninety-first psalm has a good idea. It says: “He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty” (verse 1 ). That “secret place of the most High” is a sinless place. It’s a place where man is recognized as the sinless expression of a sinless God. Now notice that it says, “dwell there,” not an occasional visit. So, “he that dwelleth,” and do the best we can at dwelling in that secret place of the most High, “shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty,” and then that psalm gives us the promise, “There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling” (verse 10). It makes no exceptions. It never says, unless there is an inherited problem or an incurable problem. It says, there shall be no plague come nigh thy dwelling.

Rosalie: Now this is from Carol, who’s writing from Idaho. She’s asking: “Is it ever too late to call in a practitioner for help, if it has been determined a disease has progressed so far a medical professional cannot help?”

Marian: It’s never too late to call on a practitioner for help because what you’re really doing when you do that is that you’re making a commitment to God for help, and it’s never too late to call on God for help. Jesus healed death. The problem had progressed to the point where the patient was dead, being carried on his way to his burial. It wasn’t too late for him. And it was the Christ, the divine nature that Jesus expressed. Jesus said, “I can of mine own self do nothing” (John 5:30 ), and there’s been many a time in which I have understood exactly what he meant. Every day I say “I can of mine own self do nothing.” But Christ, the divine nature that God gives to His image and likeness, the divine nature, Christ, that Jesus expressed so well—it’s the Christ that does the healing work, and there’s never a time when it’s too late.

In Science and Health there’s examples that have been sprinkled over the past century and a half in the history of Christian Science. Conditions that were considered to be incurable, that had gone beyond any medical facility, and their honest appraisal that they couldn’t heal it. Like a fibroid tumor, heart disease, medically diagnosed cancer and consumption—those are all found in the last chapter of Science and Health, the chapter called “Fruitage.” There was a child medically diagnosed as incurable and it was predicted he would always be an invalid and a cripple. He was healed through Christian Science, through Science and Health.

A kidney disease that a specialist had declared incurable, skin growth, medically diagnosed as incurable, those were all healed through just reading Science and Health--through that influx of Christly light that comes through the sudden understanding that there is hope. There’s never a time when we are hopeless and incurable. We are always God’s children and He is always available to us.

Rosalie: This is from Michelle, who’s writing from Virginia: “Do the same principles of healing incurable disease, also heal chronic, non-health related problems, such as long-term challenges as unemployment?”

Marian: Indeed it does apply to those very things. That’s why I mentioned early on that when Jesus and his disciples were healing, they were healing things--not only disease--but the disciples’ were afraid there wouldn’t be enough food to feed all the people that had come to hear Jesus speak. There were five thousand men, plus women, and children—thousands of people there. Was that healable? The disciples doubted it. They said: “We don’t have enough money to feed all these people.” Jesus never doubted it. He was so certain of it that he gave thanks before the people were fed. He gave thanks to God. And I think sometimes, to answer this question, that there is no condition that is incurable, not even poverty or joblessness, unemployment, unhappiness, bad marriage, relationships that are rocky.

There is no condition that can be put in the category of “incurable” because there is no end to curing fear and doubt and uncertainty. God is always there for us, always available to us. If you would read some of the examples of healing that appear in the history of Christian Science in the last century plus, you will find that there are so many conditions. I can’t think of a single one that wasn’t healed—some example in which the healing took place through the understanding of the power of God. “All things are possible to God.”

Rosalie: This is a comment from Anthony in Switzerland. He says: “By characterizing a disease as incurable, we just set a trap for ourselves. We become even more mesmerized by the condition. As Mrs. Eddy says, ‘Your decisions will master you,’ “--I think it’s “whichever direction they take” (p. 392 ). He just put part of that citation in there.

Marian: If we label something as “incurable”—for instance, today there is a great deal of talk about the environment. If we take the attitude that it’s incurable, I suspect that that fear of it, that’s what it’s going to be. But if we will turn that around, and understand that even that has an answer. Jesus showed that when he stilled a storm. Mary Baker Eddy did that when she stilled a storm, and when she healed disease supposed to be incurable. So you see, even in this age, those things can be done. The waters parted for Moses. Elijah found that God was not in the earthquake, the wind, or the fire. In our age, Christian Science is demonstrating the worth of this discovery by healing of every experience across the board.

Rosalie: Tim from Alaska says: “Do you think we are seeing less healing of diseases considered incurable in Christian Science today as compared with the early years of Christian Science?”

Marian: Well, if I thought that, I would have to believe that two plus two isn’t quite as four as it used to be. I don’t really believe that. I think that there’s probably a lot of resistance to that idea of spiritual healing. In many areas, Christian Science healing is thought of as faith-healing—maybe it’ll work and maybe it won’t. But the fact is, Christian Science healing is not faith healing. Certainly faith is a major part of the prayer that heals, but the understanding of the allness of God, and God’s power and presence, and His love for His creation certainly does not diminish through the ages. We can’t think for a moment that today it’s harder to heal because it’s no harder to know that God is with us today than it was in the early days or in Jesus’ day or in Moses’ day. It’s no harder to understand the law of God, which is what bases spiritual healing in Christian Science—it’s law. And that law is just as valid and approachable today as it ever was.

Rosalie: This is from Kathy in Missouri, and I know you gave your testimony about the growth. This is also about a growth. She says: “I’ve been praying about a growth on my nose for a couple of years now. Is it necessary to figure out what I need to correct in my thought, or is it constantly seeing myself as a spiritual idea, then this growth will yield?”

Marian: The answer to that is yes--both. It is necessary to begin with God. Does God have a growth on the nose? Of course not--it’s ludicrous. And then to think of His likeness—you have to begin with the understanding of your own perfection as the likeness of God. And from that standpoint, you’re not so likely to be intimidated by what seems to be so real. And then you do search your own thought. You do some self-examination. You know the difference between self-examination and self-condemnation?

Self-examination sees a character flaw, such as discouragement, or disturbed thought, or maybe jealousy or dishonesty or any one of those things that don’t belong to the child of God. And self-examination sees that, and replaces it with what is true about man completely free of such sin.

Self-condemnation looks at one’s self, sees the same character flaws, and grieves over it--”This is just who I am.” So be sure that you’re gaining in self-examination and not self-condemnation. Find a mistaken view of yourself, and replace it with the true view of yourself, and that leaves no roots for that growth to grow in, no foundation for it to grow, for fear is conquered.

Rosalie: Now I have two questions here that are sort of related. Cindy from Boston says: “What if you’ve been dealing with a serious problem for a long time and haven’t found healing? How do you overcome despair?” And Ann from West Palm Beach is asking: “How can I feel more victory-oriented?” And those two seem to be kind of related in a way.

Marian: Well, they do, don’t they? I have a couple little things that I use to help me with that very thing. When I wake up in the morning—even before I open my eyes—I acknowledge my connection with God. I don’t mean in any conceited way, certainly not. In the most humble way, I acknowledge that the only identity I have is one with God. Then I’m quiet. And I ask God, “Father, give me a headline for today. Give me something that is simple enough for me to understand that I can refer to all day long.” And God always comes through with some wonderful sense of an idea that will hold me all day, that will keep me from giving way to despair, discouragement, or intimidation over something that I’m working with.

The other little idea that I’ve found very helpful is whenever I’m tempted to be discouraged or in despair or think this has gone on for a long time, actually it hasn’t gone on at all to God. Whenever I’m tempted I just use three little words and I know they’re clichés but they work for me. And those three words are, “Don’t go there.” Just don’t indulge in that kind of thinking. Keep your thought with what God gives you. Hold your thought steadfastly to what He is telling you that is good and true and right about yourself. And then it won’t matter quite so much how long something has gone on. Remember that closet? The minute you open the door--no matter how long it’s been closed--the minute that you open the door, the light floods in. Revelation says, “I have set before thee an open door” (3:8 ). It’s our job to walk through that open door. But the open door is always there for us to shed light on those experiences that seem intimidating, but actually they’re not.

Rosalie: Now this one is from Sparrow in Arizona. Sparrow is asking: “What do you say to people who think we are in denial when we refuse to believe that disease can be incurable?”

Marian: Well, in a sense, we are in denial, but it’s not simply denial over something that’s very obvious. For instance, what would I do with someone who chastised me for being in denial that the earth is flat? It looks very flat—certainly does. I mean fly across Kansas and Nebraska sometime, and you will see that it looks very flat, but the fact is I’m in denial of that because I know better. And that’s what I’d say to them. God did not give us a world full of misery and suffering. God did not give us, as the Bible says, “the spirit of fear” (see II Tim. 1:7 ). He gave us this wonderful uplifted sense of the presence of Christ, in which we hear some good news—that’s what Gospel means, it’s the good news.

It’s not so much a denial of that, as it is the good news that replaces the denial--the good news that the earth isn’t flat. I don’t have to make it round, or pray that God make it round. And I’m in denial that it’s what it appears to be. I deny that the sun moves across the sky from east to west because I know that it’s the opposite, that it’s the earth revolving around the sun, not the other way around. Those denials become the affirmative truth that God is good, and He’s given all good to His children. That good takes place in the form of healing and hope and encouragement and courage and joy and peace—all those things that constitute “the fruit of the spirit” (see Gal. 5:22 ).

Rosalie: That’s very helpful. This is from Mary, who’s in Boston: “When Jesus was telling Thomas to put his finger through his hand and his side to make sure that he was indeed back alive, was his body changed and healed? That is, was Jesus saying that the nail hole in his hand and his side was healed and disappeared? I’m a little confused and unclear about what Jesus’ intention was in this part of the Bible.”

Marian: It’s a very good story about Thomas, because Thomas was doubting. It doesn’t say he was disbelieving, it was doubting. In other words, Thomas was saying, “Show me.” And that’s what Christian Science is, too. Christian Science does not doubt, but it says, “Show me”--practical proof. Keep with it, stick to it. When Jesus showed Thomas that, you see the care he had for those who were following him. He cared enough about Thomas to go right through that doubt and see the man who simply demanded proof. And that’s not bad. He was showing Thomas at a level that Thomas could understand. He said, “OK, if you doubt this, come and see what’s happened. He saw how raw those wounds were when I came off the cross,” Jesus might have said. “And now see how they are healed. See how they have not killed me. They have not stopped me. See what has happened here. And if you can’t see it by what I’ve taught you, you can see it by what has happened.” And then remember that benediction he gave to Thomas? He said, “You’re blessed because you’ve seen it and you believe.” Then he said to all of those who did not have that experience of touching the human body of Jesus when he was killed, then he proved that he was not dead. He said, “Blessed are they for they have not seen this particular experience, and yet they have believed” (see John 20:29 ). It’s a really good teaching.

Rosalie: Yes. Eva from Florida says: “There’s a subtle suggestion of nutrition and healthy eating to prevent incurable diseases. Since we still have to eat, where to draw the line between food and nutrition?”

Marian: Well, eat sensibly. Christian Science does not ignore the fact of common sense, when we eat intelligently and we eat those things that are nutritious, certainly, but I don’t know that it has really brought the world forward very far in getting rid of incurability. I don’t think that what we eat has so much to do with curing disease or fearing disease as the spiritual recognition of man’s dominion over it. For instance, world hunger seems to be an incurable thing. It’s a good subject to think about. Moses didn’t--obviously didn’t think that the hunger of the Israelites in the wilderness was hopeless. He fed them food and food that was demonstrated as just right where they were—it showed up.

I noticed that when Jesus fed the multitudes in the New Testament, it really wasn’t a very balanced meal. Did you notice that it was fish and bread? No salad, no dessert. But there was food. It was food that fed the hunger. When we feed our hunger for love and health and freedom from fear, and we feed it with an ever-increasing understanding of God’s love for us, then that true, spiritual food is going to turn out to be demonstrated in the literal food that we need, and nutrition will go along with it.

Rosalie: This is from Frank in New Mexico who says: “I take medicine and am reluctant to call a practitioner when I feel the need for help. Any thoughts?”

Marian: Well, we’ve touched on that a little bit earlier in the chat. Certainly, call a practitioner. All practitioners have their own way of dealing with that, but in Christian Science we learn that our love is not confined to certain individuals. The love that God has includes everybody. God never leaves you when you’re taking medicine or you go to the hospital. He never leaves you at the hospital steps. He’s always with you. But in Christian Science, treatment does not mix with the two methods. Therefore, don’t be afraid to call a practitioner. Be honest and say, “I’m taking medicine because I’m afraid not to.” And then talk. Let the practitioner talk to you. The practitioner, very likely, will not give you what is called “Christian Science treatment”—healing treatment—but the practitioner will surely give you encouragement, and give you the courage to stick with God and the spiritual power that’s given to man.

Rosalie: This is from Ned in Massachusetts, and he says: “I have a friend who is taking care of her mom who has Alzheimer’s disease. My friend is Catholic. As a friend, how can I support her as a Christian Scientist?”

Marian: That is such a prevalent condition. There are so many people that are doing exactly this, with compassion they’re taking care of those people who need our care—our physical care, our practical care. We have Christian Science nurses who do that, too. They take care of the practical needs of the patients while they’re working out the problem. How can you support that individual? You mention that the individual is Catholic. But I tell you what? Why not take all the labels off, and realize the sons and daughters of God are all of us? There’s no differing color, culture, religion—no boundaries between us as the children of God.

Support that individual with love and gratitude for what she’s doing. Know that there isn’t anyone outside of God’s help and love and care. I have seen a condition similar to Alzheimer’s disease, called “senile dementia”—I’ve seen that healed very quickly. In fact, it was in one treatment, from that very standpoint, the enormous presence of God’s healing love. It’s not an individual who heals. It’s God who heals. And you can support that whole situation by knowing that both patient and caregiver are loved by God.

Rosalie: All right. Cindy from Boston writes saying: “My sister suffers from migraines. It is, to her, like an incurable disease. Can you share some helpful ideas for her?”

Marian: I can share an experience of my husband’s. He was a lifelong Christian Scientist and he suffered during his early years from migraine headaches. One night—this was before I met him, so I’m relying on his description of this experience—he said one night he felt a migraine headache coming on, and he’d had them enough to know that this one was going to be a doozey. He began to pray as Christian Science teaches us to pray, and that means begin with God, not the problem. And beginning with God, identify yourself as one with God, and then see the unreality of those problems that call themselves so real, feel so real, but do not have the power of God behind them.

Migraine headaches certainly would fit that category. So as he prayed that way, he continued that prayer. He persisted. He said it took the better part of a night, but he was tired of these headaches. He’d had them too many times. Towards dawn—it was the dawning of his thought, as well—and here’s the thought that came to him: “Why, I don’t have a headache in the first place. God didn’t give it to me. I can’t have it if God didn’t give it to me. I’m His likeness.” And he thought of his image in a mirror. The image does not have anything that the original doesn’t have. It became so crystal clear to him of his real identity, and the headache stopped. It didn’t just gradually go away--it stopped. And he never had another one.

Rosalie: That’s a good answer. Barb from Minnesota is saying—now this is getting back to diabetes but it’s a little bit of a different angle on it: “I’m a lifelong Christian Scientist, thanks to my mom, and at age 18 months was diagnosed with diabetes. I’m now thirty-seven. Why does it seem that it doesn’t want to leave me? I have relied on insulin all these years, and now I feel that maybe because I have relied on this, that I won’t get rid of it. Is this true?”

Marian: No, it is not true. Remember that closet? The minute you open the door to Christ, it doesn’t matter how long you’ve relied on something else, you have that enlightenment that Christ gives you. I’m not saying that you stop all the medication. That’s your decision. I am saying that we can rely on the power of God to remove anything that is unlike God, because that’s what Christ is. Christ is the exact likeness of God, coming to human thought, coming to change our mind about ourselves, coming to give us hope and courage. Remember that “The effect of this Science is to stir the human mind to a change of base” (p. 162). Look forward to that stir--that change--and know that it’s not insulin that gives you life. It is God that gives you life.

Let me read a sentence here from Christian Science. This is not in the textbook, Science and Health, but it’s in the writings of Mary Baker Eddy. It says this: “Christian Science declares that sickness is a belief, a latent fear, made manifest on the body in different forms of fear or disease” (Retrospection and Introspection, p. 61 ). Now that’s what sickness is—sickness of any kind, whether it’s called incurable or anything else. When we replace that fear with the very present power of God as Love, then we are defeating the foundation of the disease. When you take the props out from under it, you’re on your way to defeating it. When God, divine Love, is active and vigorous in individual thought, it destroys the fear, and the foundation of disease is gone.

Rosalie: That’s very helpful. This is Barb from Arizona: “What if you know someone who has been diagnosed, but they have not asked for prayerful help? How do we pray?”

Marian: Well, Christian Science teaches the ethics of not interfering with an individual’s right to do for himself what he thinks is best. But certainly we have the right to do something prayerful about whatever engages our attention. And if that individual has engaged your attention, and you’re aware of a condition and a situation, then you have not only the right, but I think the duty and the privilege to see that individual with love. You’re not interfering with his right to choose for himself. You’re not doing something unethical, giving him treatment when he didn’t ask for it, but what you are doing is changing your own thought about who he is. And this silent, loving thought, resting on that individual, will help.

I once had an experience with a man that I knew who was an alcoholic, and he tried and tried and tried, and his wife had tried and tried and tried, but they were not Christian Scientists and they were not trying with prayer, but I’m sure that they had resorted to prayer many, many times. And it appeared to be an incurable condition. One night this individual came to mind very strongly. He hadn’t asked me for prayer, and I wasn’t praying for him, but I was praying for my concept of him. Was I seeing a hopeless alcoholic? Or was I seeing the son of God? I decided that at that moment when that individual came so strongly to my thought, I had every right to see the son of God. That wouldn’t be interfering with his—that right—it would be treating myself about him.

Well, I heard within the next couple of weeks that that individual had taken himself to a place where they take in alcoholics and help them be free of it, and he became free of it, and he lived for many, many, many years and very productive and sober years after that. Here’s the thing—we do have the right, and I think, the duty, to do something prayerful about whatever engages our attention. That’s not treating others who haven’t asked for it. That’s treating our concept of others. That keeps us busy because we have a whole world full of things that need our attention.

Rosalie: This is a listener from California, who—I think this is sort of a follow-up question: “Can you discuss how you remove fear through love?”

Marion: Yes, because I’ve done it so many times. When the Bible says, “. . . perfect love casteth out fear” (I John 4:18 ), what Christian Science fills in there is: How do we get that activated in our own thought? How do we make it practical in our own experience? I’ve found that when love is present in my thought—now that’s a deliberate choice that I have to make—I can either let fear overtake my thought or I can deliberately, conscientiously think of Love and let that Love develop in my thought. For instance, there was a time in which I was in a pretty bad situation about finances. And I have talked about this before so I’m not going to elaborate on it very much, but I will say that the mental effort to make divine Love—a name for God that the Bible gives and Science and Health picks up on it—to make divine Love so present in my thought that there wasn’t room for anything else. And it wasn’t easy at first, but it became easier as I really thought about Love as God—what God is and how Love gains the characteristics of power and infinite immortality because God is Love.

As I really focused my thought on that, and let ideas come to me about that, I realized that I wasn’t afraid anymore. I hadn’t tried to remove the fear because it’s like picking the black spots out of the pepper—there’s no end to trying to do it if we try to do it ourselves. But with Love it is really active in our consciousness, than we know that Love is doing its work, is casting out fear. In the writings of Mrs. Eddy, it tells us to “keep [our] minds so filled with Truth and Love, that sin, disease, and death cannot enter them.” It says: “It is plain that nothing can be added to the mind already full.” It continues by saying: “Good thoughts are an impervious armor; clad therewith you are completely shielded from the attacks of error of every sort” (The First Church of Christ, Scientist, and Miscellany, p. 210 ). So that’s how I deal with fear. I get Love so busy in my own thought that there’s just no space for fear to happen.

Rosalie: Now this is from Nina, who’s in Southport, Connecticut, and because we’ve been talking about medication, it seemed that it was right to ask this question: “How do you really know you’re not pushing your will, if you stop taking medication?”

Marian: Well, that is truly a very insightful question because will-power is not the way you want to do anything. Even in the Lord’s Prayer we’re establishing God’s will being done right here where we are just like it is in the atmosphere of heaven. So it is not self-will, it is a decision that God is becoming more important to you than self. God is becoming more real to you than a medication is. And when that happens, the transition from taking medicine to not taking it, becomes easier and more logical.

I can think of a time in which self-will could have influenced a prayer that I—when I was just getting acquainted with Christian Science and I was a smoker. One night I went to sleep and woke up very late hour, like midnight, with a terrific urge to get up and smoke a cigarette. I had just begun reading Science and Health and that was the first thought that came to mind. What does that book say? It pointed me towards the Bible in which it tells us that God gave dominion to man. And I thought, “Why, God gave that dominion, that spiritual strength, to me—not an addiction.” That satisfied me so completely that I went back to sleep. I never did smoke that cigarette--in fact, I never smoked again, never had any withdrawal symptoms. Now if I had tried to do that by will-power, I’m wondering if I would have had that kind of success. I might have been able to quit smoking, but I probably would have wanted to continue smoking. But as this one came about, it was through God’s work, turning to God and what He has given me, that self-will was not a factor at all. It simply was a very natural and inevitable freedom from that drug.

Rosalie: I also know of testimonies where people who had been taking medication, as they were reading Science and Health, for example, just forgot to take it, and then some weeks later suddenly realized, “Oh, I have all these medicines.” And they didn’t realize that they had stopped taking them, and they realized that they were healed. So, it’s not so much kind of willing yourself, but really allowing, like Marian was saying, God to become so prominent in your thought that it kind of takes care of it in its own way. You don’t have to push it.

Marian: Yeah, that’s true. It’s a natural transition. I don’t remember when—I was in my early twenties when I first was introduced to Christian Science and became interested in it. I don’t remember any fear about leaving medication at all. I had had doctors’ help, I had had medication many times during my growing-up years. But I don’t remember there being any transition there at all. It simply was, “Why yeah, this is the way it ought to be.” Remember that the first statement in Science and Health is, “To those leaning on the sustaining infinite, to-day is big with blessings” (p. vii ). And I remember when I first read that, for the first time, it was just like a light coming on, and I thought, “Why yeah, that’s the way it should be.” It wasn’t a matter of giving up something in order to be a Christian Scientist. It was an introduction to, “Yeah, this makes sense.”

Rosalie: Now, much as I hate to say this, this is going to be our last question. I apologize to all of you whose questions we haven’t gotten to. “I’ve been praying with the support of a Christian Science practitioner for awhile now about an incurable disease. I feel that I have made tremendous progress as a result of this prayer, the spiritual reality of my being is so real to me. However, in spite of this spiritual growth, there has been no change in the symptoms. If anything, they have gotten worse. I know that fixing the body is not the purpose, but I also know that it is natural to expect complete healing. Any insights to share?”

Marian: Yes, because that’s where I once was. Wonderful insights, wonderful spiritual progress, where I was then and continue to be—extremely grateful for that progress of spiritual learning--but the condition wasn’t getting any better. It wasn’t until I learned to bring every thought to the Christ--not every other one—every thought to the Christ. In other words, think correctly about myself at all times and trust God--that’s when the healing took place.

Rosalie: Well, Marian, this has been quite a session and we’ve had a lot of different kinds of questions to answer, and I’m really grateful to you for all your fine answers and for all your help. Do you have any final comments for us?

Marian: Well, I don’t know how much time I have, but I would just like to mention a Biblical illustration of removing fear. This was when Moses was afraid no one would believe him, that he was following God’s command to lead the Israelites out of slavery. And sometimes we feel enslaved to sickness and disease, don’t we? Moses was told to put his hand inside his shirt. He did, pulled it out again, and it was leprous—the most dreaded disease of his day. And God told him to put his hand into his shirt again, and when he looked at his hand it was entirely clean, free of disease. Science and Health comments on this illustration, stating: “God had lessened Moses’ fear by this proof in divine Science, and the inward voice became to him the voice of God . . .” (p. 321 ). It was the removal of fear that removed the disease, because the disease was not God-sent, therefore it had no power over Moses. Well, it has no power over us. The only power we have is the power of God, and God is good.

Rosalie: Thank you so much.

Marian: You’re welcome, it’s been a pleasure.

Rosalie: Today’s guest was Marian English, a practitioner and teacher of Christian Science in Colorado Springs, Colorado.