Christian Science prayer—not faith healing

In this chat, Christian Science practitioner and teacher Phil Davis thoughtfully discusses the difference between Christian Science prayer and faith healing. Phil draws on examples from his own life, as well as from his work as a Christian Science practitioner, to respond to a wide variety of questions on topics ranging from US healthcare reform and reliance on medical treatment to what the role of faith really is in healing. In bringing clarity to this issue, Phil emphasizes the importance of an individual’s right to make his or her own healthcare decisions, and cites the thousands of documented Christian Science healings, including his own, as evidence of the efficacy of Christian Science prayer.

The transcribed text has been edited for clarity.

spirituality.com host: Hello, everyone. Welcome to another spirituality.com live question and answer audio event. My name is Ingrid Peschke and I’ll be your host for the next hour. The music that was played prior to the chat’s theme was Inhabiting Eternity, a recording by Kathy and Char who are professional Christian Science nurses. This CD is available here at spirituality.com under the “Shop--Audio.” Today’s topic is “Christian Science prayer--not faith healing” and our guest is Phil Davis from Boston, Massachusetts. Phil has been a professional Christian Science practitioner available to help others through prayer for over twenty years. He’s also one of about two hundred authorized Christian Science teachers in the world. He’s the Manager of the Committees on Publication for The First Church of Christ, Scientist, in Boston and in this role he directs the work of a worldwide team of individuals who work with media and their governments to correct published false statements or omissions on Christian Science. Phil, Welcome!

Phil Davis: Thank you, Ingrid, it’s great to be with you.

spirituality.com host: It’s wonderful to have you with us today. Do you [have] some thoughts to get us started on the topic?

Phil: Well, yeah, you could almost call this program a case of mistaken identity. There have been some recent deaths of children with parents who are referred to as “faith healers.” Just to be clear, none of these involved Christian Scientists. But that’s the problem. There’s a tendency to lump Christian Science in with others under the banner of “faith healing.” And the problem is that it really doesn’t belong there. In other words, there’s a lot of baggage that comes with the term “faith healer.” I want to be clear—I’m not here to talk about anybody else’s religion, but I do want to talk about what Christian Science is and what it is not. And how that is distinct, and it’s quite different, from what is commonly thought of as “faith healing.” Ingrid, when it really comes to children, we have to be talking about what is in their best interest. And, again, let me be clear that Christian Science parents that I know who practice Christian Science, would do anything they have to do to save the life of a child, and alleviate the suffering of their children. Christian Science is all about individual worship and individual decision-making. It honors individuality and individual decision-making. It’s not about dogma and being simply obedient to a religious theology. It involves making wise and intelligent decisions for yourself and for others and for those under your care. To do something without thinking, without making your own decision, is simply not the Christian Science that I know and love. Christian Science is about worshiping a God that’s unconditional Love. It’s never arbitrary, never whimsical. It is never God’s will that someone die or suffer. I view, Ingrid, Christian Science as a system of prayer-based healing and that doesn’t mean it’s anti-medical. I like to think that we have common goals with medical professionals—the alleviation of all disease and suffering. We just go about it differently. That doesn’t make it anti-medical.

spirituality.com host: Right.

Phil: And along that line, just because prayer is being used, doesn’t mean that we are judgmental towards those people or those members who would choose medical treatment. In fact, I have found Christian Scientists generally far less judgmental about the use of medical treatment than those who use medical treatment are about relying on prayer for healing.

spirituality.com host: Interesting.

Phil: I’ve also spent, personally, many hours, including whole nights, bedside, holding the hands of patients, and reading with them, just loving them right where they are—in doctors’ offices and in hospitals. Christian Science healing to me, Ingrid, results from a deepening understanding and relationship with God, a greater spiritual understanding of Him, and our relationship to Him. Christian Science healing is not a sideshow event. It’s not there to impress people. It is not a display. It’s not a show. It is deeply individual and God-based. Christian Science has a hundred-and-forty-year record of healing. It’s not a fly-by-night event. It just hasn’t happened over the last few years. I believe our periodicals, our magazines that are put out by the Church, have over 60,000 published testimonies—many of children.

spirituality.com host: Yep, long record.

Phil: So, it’s really about what children deserve best. They deserve to live, they deserve to be free. Unfortunately, children do get into trouble, there are accidents, there are illnesses. I think it’s just fair to say that thousands of children die every year under good medical treatment. We all want what’s best for children. But if we’re going to have an honest discussion about what’s really best for children, then let’s not assume that Christian Science is ineffective and dangerous. Let’s not assume that medical treatment is perfect. The facts say otherwise. And I might just add one last point before we get into a discussion, Ingrid, that Christian Scientists are known for being very law abiding. But we do have something to say about what laws there are. Parents deserve options so they can make the best decisions that they can for their children. Prayer in Christian Science should be one of those options.

spirituality.com host: You’ve brought up some really good points to get us started here, and I think this first question that we have from Jean—probably you’ve already touched on some of the points but let me just ask it. She says: “What would you say are the top two or three most important points to be made when differentiating healing through Christian Science versus faith healing or mind/body methods? I’m interested in a few clear, succinct points to remember to make when it comes up in conversation.”

Phil: That’s a really good question. Actually, the top one for me is results matter. This has to be about children. It’s not about professionals, it’s not about parents, it’s about children. What is best for them--and results matter. Alleviating suffering, making sure children are in health, making sure that whatever we’re providing them is the best we can provide them to restore them to health and well-being. That I’d say is the top one and probably just leave it right there.

spirituality.com host: And it certainly applies all the way up to adults, too, doesn’t it as far as that?

Phil: Yes, but especially with children. Children don’t care for themselves, they need good parenting, and the government does have a role in overseeing to make sure that good parenting is taking place. I support that. And Christian Scientists I know fully support that—that there are laws in place to protect children. Just want to be sure that those laws are protecting children the right way, and making sure that parents have all the options they need to make the best choices for their children. spirituality.com host: Yeah, that’s so important. Speaking of laws, do feel free to skip or decline a question if needed, but this one from Paul in San Diego, he says: “Is there an accommodation for spiritual healing in either of the two pending healthcare bills now in Congress?”

Phil: Are you talking about healthcare reform?

spirituality.com host: I’m assuming that’s what he’s talking about.

Phil: Not at this point, but this is something that’s taking place. It’s in process right now. None of the bills that are being discussed, or what might go to the President for signature, go into effect fully until a few years from now. So there is a process that’s going to be taking place, not just this year, but next year and the year after that. So we’re continuing to work on it. One of the things that we do is we’re not just there for an event. That this process of working with governments is something that is very consistent with us--and I just might add, Ingrid, not just for ourselves, but for the benefit of the public. There are lots of people who are really looking to what Christian Science has to offer. They want what it is that Christian Science provides. It’s for their sake that these laws, these provisions, are put in to make sure that when it comes to healthcare it’s not equivalent with only one kind of healthcare, called medical treatment. That other forms of treatment be provided for within the law, and that has to include Christian Science care and treatment.

spirituality.com host: Right. Melinda from Michigan writes in: “It is often explained that Christian Science healing is based on spiritual laws and not blind faith. Could you give a few examples of specific spiritual laws a practitioner of Christian Science might base healing treatment on? Also, what might be some specific laws one might persist with if healing is not immediate?”

Phil: That’s a very wide-open question! Well, maybe we could start here by saying, Yes, that we are talking about spiritual laws of God. But what does that mean when people talk about “the law of God”? We’re not talking about just ignoring the human laws that exist. I’m glad they’re there. They should be there. But in dealing with the theology of Christian Science I think it helps to know that God, as I’ve said earlier, is not whimsical, He’s not arbitrary, He’s a constant. His love is ever-present. To realize that, to know that, for that spiritual light bulb to go on, in effect, it changes everything. It changes the way you think, it changes the way you live, and it even changes and has an impact on your physical health. So, it’s the beauty of what we’re doing is very much the beauty of what we find in Jesus’ ministry in the Bible. That when he came across illness or suffering or disease, he never stood for that, never said that that’s the will of God, he healed it, he did something about it. And this is exactly what we’re following today, too. It’s based on more than just a hope or a promise. It is based on a hundred-and-forty year record that goes back two thousand years ago to the record of Jesus.

spirituality.com host: And certainly, it’s not will power, either.

Phil: No, no.

spirituality.com host: There’s a huge distinction there. This is from New York—no name—and they write: “Since many religions and medical disciplines recognize the power of prayer, do you think that a government public option should cover the work of Christian Science practitioners, or all religious practitioners?” Do you want me to repeat that?

Phil: Yeah, could you?

spirituality.com host: “Since many religions and medical disciplines recognize the power of prayer, do you think that a government public option should cover the work of Christian Science practitioners, or all religious practitioners?”

Phil: Well, provisions in our law—and here I want to be clear, for the moment I’m talking about United States. I’m talking about US laws that we have, because we have a Constitution and that Constitution separates church and state. A lot of countries don’t have that, but in this country we do. So there is a place for accommodating the practice of religion. To do so, requires that it is something that is available to everyone, but it is not establishing or favoring or promoting a specific religion. It is very possible to have provisions in this country that do that beautifully, and make sure that they are not denying or infringing upon the free exercise of that religion. And, of course, here we’re talking about religion that deals with healthcare. So that’s what our provisions are meant to do. That’s their purpose.

spirituality.com host: Nancy in Seattle says: “Please explain the comment that you have at times prayed beside people in hospitals.” And you were talking about your work as a practitioner, I assume.

Phil: Yeah.

spirituality.com host: Or friend?

Phil: I think this is very important to me, Ingrid. As a Christian Science practitioner, I would go anywhere where there is a receptive thought, where there is a willingness to rely on God, a willingness to seek Him out. In different cases that I’ve had, in some cases it’s meant staying all night to be with a patient, to read to them, to be able to talk with them about their relationship with God. There is a thought that because a lot of Christian Scientists rely completely on God and don’t use medical services, that we are anti-medical, that we would just turn away people who use medical treatment. I’d like to really get after that. That yes, this is a stand-alone system, this is a system whereby one does put his or her reliance on God. But we find ourselves, today, in all sorts of places. And I want to be sure that I’m never turning away from an individual who’s turning to God--that I’m always going to be there for them. And I’ll tell you I’m not the only one. I know of lots of people who feel that way, too.

spirituality.com host: And you might make a distinction between with the motive of the patient in terms of what they’re seeking for their healing as to how much you offer treatment in Christian Science versus prayerful support?

Phil: And I’m glad to get in there, gets into a little more detail. It really comes down to, Ingrid, what’s best for the patient. Is it for me to provide the kind of treatment that would be seeing the allness of God, and seeing that that is the only power in their life, the only possible power? And I can certainly do that, but I’m also mindful of their surroundings, and if they are looking to medical treatment to provide that kind of healthcare for them, I don’t want to interfere with that. I don’t want to in any way cause confusion with that. But it doesn’t mean that I won’t go bedside. It doesn’t mean that I will not talk to that patient and be there, comforting and loving them. That’s the point I’m trying to make.

spirituality.com host: Right, that’s good. Gail in Maryland writes: “Mrs. Eddy wrote inScience and Health that Christian Scientists should ‘be thoroughly persuaded in your own mind concerning the truth which you think or speak, and you will be the victor’ (p. 412 ). Where does this kind of persuasion or faith come from and how is it different from the more popular concept of faith healing?”

Phil: That’s a very involved theological question, but let me just try to say that in Christian Science that I just find that when I’m dealing with the public—and let’s just talk about not just Christian Scientists but everyone—that I’m finding people at all sorts of stages, all sorts of places in life, and yes, we want to be thoroughly persuaded as to the omnipotence of God, our intact relationship with Him. But I don’t know about anybody else but that’s something I’m searching for and seeking every day. Some days I feel closer to God than others. But I do know that as my motive is to do that, to seek Him out, to be thoroughly persuaded about being close to God and that intact relationship, that every day is a new day of being closer. Every day is progressive. But I’m saying that because people find themselves at different places. And I want to be sure that we’re not stereotyping, categorizing, or putting people all into “you’re either on this side of the fence or another side of the fence.” That everyone has an ability to love God and to be loved of God. To me, what I love about Christian Science, is it is a religion of inclusion, it’s a religion that embraces everyone no matter where they are and what they’re doing. And I want to be sure that that is the top-level message that I’m putting out, rather than conditionally whether I’m able to help somebody or not.

spirituality.com host: And I think that faith is founded on a real sense of spiritual understanding, so it takes it just a little bit farther. Doesn’t Mrs. Eddy write in Science and Health: “The prayer that reforms the sinner and heals the sick is an absolute faith that all things are possible to God,--a spiritual understanding of Him, an unselfed love” (p. 1 ). So she takes it just a step farther and says it relies on that deep, spiritual understanding of God and what’s possible.

Phil: And isn’t that what it means to “be thoroughly persuaded,” too?

spirituality.com host: Absolutely.

Phil: I guess the point I’m making is yes, it does come down to that kind of faith, that kind of spiritual understanding. And those of us who call ourselves Christian Scientists are not the people who say, “Oh, yeah, we’re there, we’re the ones “thoroughly persuaded.” I don’t want to set up for anyone listening to say that we’ve got it all together, we know what we’re doing. We are seeking too, and we have latched on to something that is so precious, so important, that leads us in a great direction, but we’re all travelers on this road. To the degree that we understand, to the degree that we find that thorough persuasion of faith and understanding, that’s what results in physical healing. And it has done so consistently and enough over this hundred-and-forty-year record to call it a real science, to call it something that you can actually depend upon.

spirituality.com host: That’s so true. Peter from Colorado writes: “I have heard that the Amish people have obtained an exemption under the proposed healthcare reform from their requirement to purchase individual health insurance. If that is correct, why are Christian Scientists not granted similar exemptions?” Are you aware of that, Phil?

Phil: Yes, I’m aware of that provision. The provision actually has the condition that it has to be a religious organization. It does not, by the way, state the Amish, but it does apply to them. But the provision applies to those religious organizations that financially, and otherwise, provide for their members’ healthcare. So it’s very much tied into their religious organization because that’s what the Amish do, apparently. That doesn’t apply the same way to the Christian Science Church.

spirituality.com host: Here’s a question that I’m sure you’ve heard time and again. It’s from Christina in San Francisco and she says: “I see putting trust in God, but surely if a Christian Scientist is hit by a car, they would go to a hospital and pray there?”

Phil: You know, I’ve known of cases where Christian Scientists have been in automobile accidents who have gone to the hospital and received medical treatment. They’ve made that choice. I’ve known of Christian Scientists who have been in the same situation who’ve relied completely on prayer and found healing. I know of individuals who have allowed themselves to be taken in an ambulance to the doctor, prayed on the way, and been healed when they got to the hospital. I want to be sure we never shortchange, not just the possibility, but the beauty of relying on prayer in Christian Science, can heal anything. Now we’re in the process of proving that every single day as to how effective it is. But, again, the track record is so noteworthy here to look at, that we want to make sure we’re not putting down both the possibility and the importance of this kind of healthcare in our society and around the world being something that is not easily dismissed. It is not something that should be dismissed. It is an answer to healthcare reform. It is an answer to the woes of our society that are finding that just trying to fix a physical body is not enough. That there is a relationship to God that comes with physical health, and doing both, together, is what individuals are finding is so incredibly precious and wonderful about Christian Science.

spirituality.com host: Leah from Minnesota writes: “How does Christian Science class instruction help one learn to pray more effectively?” And that’s a 12-day course that Christian Scientists can take from authorized teachers of Christian Science. But she’s asking how that can help you to learn more to pray more effectively?

Phil: Sure, and I’m glad you explained what class instruction was to those who don’t know. What I’ve said before, previously, about the constancy of relying on prayer, the fact that it is systematic, that you can rely on it, is what you learn during this class instruction period from an authorized teacher. It is not a silver bullet that says afterwards, now everything is learned. It really gives you the tools by which you can put this into practice every day afterwards. Many find it indispensable to their own spiritual growth and progress.

spirituality.com host: It’s a great way to expound on your understanding and be able to share that with others. Here’s another question from Maureen in England. She writes: “Do you discount the work of Christian faith-healers or consider it to be of value?”

Phil: No, I don’t discount it. I think that what’s important is the metric, and the metric is results matter. And that’s not for me to judge, but I do know that the public, and I do know that state and countries are interested in protecting their children, and those are laws, as I said before, that we uphold and honor. So it’s important that that metric be something that is something we should all—whatever we call ourselves—but if I call myself a Christian Scientist, I want to be sure that I am doing everything possible to heal effectively. And that it be quickly and that it be a whole healing and that that child not be in suffering. And it’s been my privilege over a few decades now, as a practitioner, to be praying for children and to find those quick and whole healings, to find that kind of process take place quickly. I find children wonderful to pray for. They’re tractable, they’re ready, and I love that. But that demand is there, and every time I take a case with a child, it’s important to see healing quickly.

spirituality.com host: Right. Isn’t it fair to say that Christian Science isn’t about glorifying pain or disease as a means of showing at all costs God’s power or Christ’s power? That’s it really that healing is the essential goal and not at the cost of the patient.

Phil: Right. This is, again, not about dogma. It’s not just about following a particular theology. It’s not about fear--in other words, a Biblical prohibition. And there are some groups and some theologies that have this that you should not go to the doctor because some bad things will happen to you, or other things that you should not do. Christian Science isn’t about Biblical prohibitions. It’s not about fear. It is about the potential and the prospect of spiritual healing, not only bringing physical health, but a deepening relationship with God that has everything to do with the way you live, and your purpose in living, and your ability to not only help yourself, but others.

spirituality.com host: So as we drill down on this question of faith and healing, Lee from Boston asks: “So what is the actual relation of faith to Christian Science? Do you mean that a person doesn’t actually need faith in order to be healed?”

Phil: No, faith is wonderful and it is indispensable. But I love the idea and the ideal that faith leads to spiritual understanding. Faith, in and of itself, to me, is not enough. It is precious, it is wonderful, but I want faith in my life to lead to a real, concrete understanding of the power and influence of God in my life and everyone around me.

spirituality.com host: Yeah, that’s good. This is an interesting comment, and I think it’s just an opportunity for you to maybe clarify. Joy from Canada says: “Why are you focusing on children? Doesn’t this apply to senior citizens and everyone in between? Everything you’ve said seems to be equally important to everyone.” And I think you would agree with that.

Phil: Oh, yes. But I think this is a good point to come back to the beginning of the program. That we are dealing with several states with deaths of children due to faith healers. And, again, I want to emphasize this is not about Christian Scientists or Christian Science parents or Christian Science children. These are people who have received the label of “faith healers.” They’re in several states right now, and so the focus is on children and faith healing. And that’s why the focus of the program is there, too.

spirituality.com host: And certainly, they appear to be the most vulnerable, not making those decisions for themselves.

Phil: Yes, and there lies the question. What is good parenting? But the bigger question is, as I said before, and I think this is the most important question: What is the best interest of the child? What is in their best interest? This is about healthcare for children.

spirituality.com host: Now this is a question from Deb in California and she brings up an important point. Let’s see if you’d like to answer it. “This is a very different conversation,” she says, “from how Christian Scientists were thinking twenty years ago when there were several Christian Science children who did die. How do you explain that?”

Phil: Well, I don’t know that I explain it--yes, it is a fact that that happened. There were several cases. It’s interesting to note that those cases were a couple decades ago, that if twenty years plus there has not been another case in the courts and I think what that says—

spirituality.com host: That’s important.

Phil: Well, it is important. I think what it says is that our Church is capable of evolving. Our Church members are capable of a better understanding, of an evolving sense of, not only theologically relationship to God, but their responsibility of parenting, their responsibility to children. And I think this is what we have is a Church of “please don’t judge me by twenty, thirty, forty years ago. Judge us by today on how we’re doing.”

spirituality.com host: Right. You know we have a couple of questions—more than a couple—that are coming in with a similar tone to them. I’m going to ask you the idea of “can medical treatment be combined with Christian Science treatment? Can you experience a healing in Christian Science when you are receiving medical care?” And that’s going to obviously be dependent on each individual case, but maybe you can touch on the topic.

Phil: As a Christian Science practitioner, I’m interested in where an individual is mentally, where their reliance is. If their ability, their willingness, to rely on God is to a point where I can work with them, because if they want to find power and effectiveness in, say, a drug treatment, then that is their choice, I don’t frown on that, I don’t judge them. But if they’re doing that, that is distinct and different from the treatment that I would provide to them prayerfully. I know there are a lot of people, and there are probably listeners who feel that there is no difference. But I find that there is. There is a difference between the praying that I would pray that a God that is all-powerful, that is omnipresent, omnipotent, that that power is not shared by matter or materialism. In fact, that’s not where power comes from. And that power, to me, is powerless. But I don’t want to be praying that way to an individual in a medical setting who wants that drug to have an effect. That would be a contradiction. Now I realize I just took a deep dive into theology here. I guess what I’m leading towards, Ingrid, is that I want to be sure that individuals that I’m speaking with, that I’m talking to that are seeking out Christian Science, that I’m not categorizing them, saying that simply because you’re in a doctor’s office or a hospital, I can’t help you. Maybe Christian Science treatment may not be the thing for them at that time, but I can certainly pray with them, I can be talking to them, I can be providing citations, speaking about their relationship to God, helping to lift them to a greater reliance on God. But I also don’t want to be shortchanging a patient by saying I can’t provide everything I would provide to you simply because of your physical location. I know of too many instances where individuals have been relying enough on God and just having the humility and childlikeness to put everything of God that I would never want to turn away from them. To me, it would be unchristian to do so. So I’m always working from a standpoint of what is best to help this individual?

spirituality.com host: That’s good. Jane in Oregon writes: “What did Jesus mean when he said, ‘Your faith has made you whole’? (see Matt. 9:22 ). Is it what you are talking about or faith healing?” I guess what she’s asking is: Is that true faith or is that related to faith healing?

Phil: Well, I’m not here to give the definitive Gospel interpretation for everyone, but I love that healing. It’s a healing of a woman who is hemorrhaging for many, many years if this is the one the individual is thinking of. I love that “thy faith hath made thee whole.” Faith in the New Testament, Greek word implies something more than just believing in the unknown, just trying to put it together. It, to me, speaks about that spiritual understanding we’ve already spoken of. It speaks about that sense of yearning and putting your complete trust and love in God. I feel that, to me, that’s what Jesus was talking about.

spirituality.com host: And I suspect he wouldn’t have been so consistently effective without that. And that’s really what you seem to be saying, I think, this idea of consistently getting the results, just looking for that. That’s so important.

Phil: To me, God is never arbitrary. God is never a question mark. It’s never a question whether God’s willing to help, willing to heal. I mean this is what Jesus proved. This is what the disciples and the apostles have proved, that He’s always there. The only question, the only variableness—and I’ll just speak of myself—am I putting all with God? Am I willing to be close to Him? Am I willing to rely completely on Him--not just blindly, but intelligently with that understanding? That’s the question and that’s where I always want to come down on, what can I do more to put my trust and love in God?

spirituality.com host: We have quite a few listeners who are interested in the healthcare legislation and I have another one here for you. Sue from Atlanta, Georgia says: “Is the Christian Science Church supportive of the individual mandate in the current healthcare bill, even without the spiritual amendment? If not, is there any way Christian Scientists can become exempt?”

Phil: I want to be clear about something that as an official of the Christian Science Church, we do not get involved in these kinds of healthcare legislative bills to either advocate for them or to oppose them. This is more along the lines of: If there is going to be a healthcare reform and healthcare mandate nationally, then there should be a provision in it that does not discriminate against spiritual care that Christian Science provides. That should not be discriminated against.

spirituality.com host: Right. Good answer. OK. Let’s see, Janis from California says: “How can Christian Scientists do a better job of not finding themselves in hospitals or under medical care?”

Phil: You know, Janis, I think I would answer that differently, though, because to me, that’s not the important question. I think that the question to me is that no matter where you find yourself, wherever it is, if it is in a doctor’s office or a hospital, that you are fully equipped, that you have a relationship with God, that you are enabled and empowered to find your freedom, to find your oneness with God, and to even find physical healing, no matter where you are. That’s the most important thing I would want to have anyone know.

spirituality.com host: That’s good. Here’s a question and it specifically is directed I think towards you and your practice and you could broaden it out if you want. It’s: “Have you had cases where you’ve released child cases and why?” And I suspect that means where you’ve decided to stop praying or working for the case. Would there be an instance where that might be important?

Phil: Well, first of all, when I hear a question like that the first thing I want to say is you need to understand the role of a Christian Science practitioner, because some people might be thinking of that role of practitioner as an authority over the case. Now there’re situations in a medical environment where a doctor has not only a responsibility but a legal responsibility. They’re not dealing with the same model here. Who’s in charge of the case? The patient--always. They’re the ones making the choices. They decide to hire and fire the practitioner. They make their own healthcare decisions. So as a Christian Science practitioner, I don’t get involved in those kind of decisions, and I don’t in any way influence a patient as to which direction they’re going. It is completely their choice. I don’t think I answered the whole question though. What was the rest of that?

spirituality.com host: Well, just the idea of would you release a case?

Phil: I have. Again, I felt that the patient was making a decision to go in a direction that was something that I could not go down. You know, that’s always a thing I can do is release myself from a case. But I have to say that’s very rare that I go down that road. I might say if the focus here, again, is on children that most of the cases that I’m aware of have turned about quickly, which I’m so grateful for. And, again, that’s one of the reasons I love praying for children because those healings do come so quickly. I just wish adults were as ready to be healed as children.

spirituality.com host: Don’t we all? This is from a listener in the US. It’s an opportunity for you to maybe clarify something you said previously. They’re asking: “Regarding using medical care in Christian Science treatment, if someone is using medical care,” they say: “Did you mean that you would guide the patient in prayer but not provide Christian Science treatment?”

Phil: I don’t want to set here a rule because every case is so unique and so different. It all depends on the circumstances involving that case. It isn’t enough to say a patient who is using medical treatment. This is all about the ability of a patient to understand what’s happening, the ability of a patient to rely on God. There’re circumstances, so that determines everything to me. I will say that it is possible for a patient to be in a hospital bed, tubes coming out of them, medical professionals hovering around, but that individual to be so on fire, so ready to go with God, and to rely completely on Him, that treating that patient would not be a challenge. But I want to emphasize that it’s all about where that patient is. Rather than setting up a stereotypical rule or categorizing people, just saying that because you’re in this place, I can’t help you.

spirituality.com host: And isn’t it important, too, to make the distinction that you need their consent, because you wouldn’t want to be praying for someone to have healing in Christian Science when, in fact, they’re relying on a medical system which is the antithesis of that? Wouldn’t that be an important distinction to make? I mean you don’t want to be praying against the doctor’s methods, if in fact, they’re hoping that they will be effective and wanting them to be.

Phil: Sure, absolutely, but it goes back to the patient makes the decisions here, not the practitioner. The only decision I have is whether I want to be on the case or not.

spirituality.com host: Right.

Phil: And that’s the decision that I have to make, but it is never to influence the patient or tell them what to do.

spirituality.com host: Yeah, that’s so important, it’s about that individual. Here’s a good question from a listener who asks: “Do Christian Scientists believe in laying on of hands or anointing?”

Phil: Well, it’s interesting that the laying on of hands which occurs a couple places in the New Testament isn’t so much a—I don’t feel that was ever in the power of physical hands affecting anything. I always thought it was metaphorical in the sense of hands, if you look up again the original word, it talks about the power of God, and this sense of realizing that God’s love is available unconditionally. And the realization of that, to me, is a laying on of hands, is the sense that God is available to us right here on earth. But no, Christian Science does not get into rituals and that kind of anointing or laying on of hands physically. It is not dependent on that, nor have I ever done it as a practitioner.

spirituality.com host: Here’s a question from Ron in Michigan. And he writes: “The benefits of God are found in the Old Testament Psalms 103. Two of these are that God will ‘forgive all our iniquities and heal all of our diseases.’ Could you explain how Jesus used these benefits in demonstrating the Science of his healing ministry?”

Phil: There’s no doubt when we talk about statements like this, we’re talking about the potential, the actual potential, of what a faith and understanding of God can bring under any situation. And I believe in that. But I think all of us here--you and I, Ingrid, and anyone listening--would realize we’re all in the process of demonstrating that, we’re all in the process of proving that every day. So, yes, God is capable of anything, and I’m in the process every day of proving that. Have I proved it fully, a hundred percent under every circumstance? No. But I need to say that Christian Science has done this over this hundred and forty years sufficiently to be heard by a world or an aspect of society that doesn’t even believe that you can rely on prayer or that prayer will do anything. It’s interesting, Ingrid, that in 2007 a study done concluded that over thirty percent of individuals in the United States experienced a divine healing at some time in their lives. Think about that! Now that’s not the majority of Americans, but that’s a significant percentage.

spirituality.com host: Well, and you know I’ve been thinking a lot about the fact that Mary Baker Eddy, who discovered and founded Christian Science, experienced divine healing in her life even up until the point where she began to find out about this Science. She had this healing of a near-fatal fall on the ice and she saw it, not as miraculous, but as provable and repeatable, and eventually as a Science. And that’s what this questioner is asking about. She saw that it was the Christ Science of healing that she had touched upon that could be taught and practiced. And didn’t she say, she discerned, in her words, “the heart of Christianity”? (Miscellaneous Writings, p. 25 ). So she didn’t see it as a miraculous healing—”OK, I’ve had healing in my life, this is great. Maybe I’ll do it again. I’ll read my Bible and be healed or I might be able to heal someone else.” She actually took it and said, “Wow, this is for, not just my time period, but for eternity.”

Phil: Well, and you think about to anyone who might be listening that fits into those in society who don’t even believe that prayer can do anything, it’s like praying to the tooth fairy or something, we have to be sure here that what we’re talking about is provable. There are people alive today—and it’s more than a few dozen—we’re talking about a lot of people who are alive today because they have put their trust and faith and their prayer in God. And it has resulted in tangible evidence. That’s what we’re talking about, and it’s important to understand, if one simply dismisses the power of prayer to be a consistent healthcare provider for them, then that is the very definition of prejudice. It’s interesting that we have come so far as a society to say that we don’t want to believe or tolerate racial bigotry or intolerance, and yet should we do the same with religious practices? Should there be a prejudice and a bigotry of religious practice without an honest, objective looking at individual lives that have resulted in children growing up to adulthood, having their own children, and them growing to adulthood, who have been safe, who have been healthy, who have been healed because of Christian Science care and treatment? That deserves an honest investigation.

spirituality.com host: I think that’s why so many of our listeners today are interested in these healthcare bills and what’s going on with that, but I have more questions on that, but for the meantime let me ask you this from a listener in Washington state. They write: “Mrs. Eddy said ‘Mind-healing, and healing with drugs, are opposite modes of medicine. As a rule, drop one of these doctors when you employ the other.’ “ And that’s from her Miscellaneous Writings, page 88 . And they’re asking if you could please comment on that?

Phil: Well, once again, I’d like to go back to what’s required in Christian Science is where the individual is mentally, where their trust is, their reliance is. That’s what I’m looking at as a practitioner. And again, it isn’t enough for me to look at the physical location of an individual. Or to even know just the shallow circumstances of what treatment they’re under. I want to know where they are, because that isn’t the only statement that Mary Baker Eddy makes on the subject. She places a great emphasis on an accurate discernment of thought--where the individual is. The other thing I want to say that even if I’m led not to provide Christian Science treatment for an individual patient, that’s not the only thing I can provide. As I’ve said before, I can stay bedside, I can talk to that individual, I can nurture and love them to a greater sense of reliance on God. Not out of any fear, not out of a punitive sense, but out of a deep love. And that, to me, is what Christian Science is all about—love for God and love for mankind. If God’s love is not conditional, I sure want to make sure that my love is not conditional.

spirituality.com host: Yeah, that Christly compassion is so important. Here’s a question from Kari in New York, and she’s thinking about the healthcare overhaul: “What do we do if we’re not treated fairly in this healthcare overhaul?”

Phil: And that is where prayer comes in and I think that’s where our prayers are needed. We’ve seen in our society, not just this decade but for many decades, an encroachment of materialism, a sense of atheism, a sense that can really one look to God for anything? Does God exist? To me, this is something that it isn’t just crying out and complaining about the society around us and saying, “Well, I guess they’re not very spiritual.” That’s not my approach. Mine is one out of love that what they need is more of what I can provide through my practice of Christian Science. In other words, it’s not for them to say, “Why aren’t you doing more?” It’s for me, why am I not doing more? Why is my practice not reaching more and giving them that sense of love from God that they can feel, that becomes so tangible that it saves your life. It saved my life, Ingrid, and I still remember that day when I tangibly felt God’s love, and that I felt it in very practical ways. I want everyone to feel that way. But I want to be sure that I’m not for one minute decrying the state of society. That’s not going to do anything. What’s important upon me is to be sure we’re having a tangible impact on society around us. That means we have to do more of the gift we’ve been given. We have to give more of what we’ve been giving.

spirituality.com host: That’s good. We had a question from a listener who asked about how you were propelled into the public practice of Christian Science? Did you just allude to that with your own healing? Is that partly . . . ?

Phil: Not really. I had a career that was going nowhere.

spirituality.com host: That will do it, too!

Phil: I loved Christian Science and I just soaked it up, I couldn’t get enough of it, and as I said, it saved my life early on as a teenager, and it was a dramatic event in my life. But the more that I loved Christian Science, the more that I found my efforts to have a successful career were thwarted. I could not move forward and it was very discouraging until finally I realized that I was fighting the inevitable here, that I had to give more to it. If I had been given so much and so much had touched my life and changed my life and benefited myself and others, then I needed to give that to others. I needed to dedicate my life more to giving to others what I had received. That’s what did it.

spirituality.com host: Here’s a question, not an easy one to answer, let me see if I can get this right. “How do you explain the death of someone who was prayed for by a Christian Scientist when they could have been treated by medical means? How is that different from a person who died under faith healing?”

Phil: I don’t know that I can answer that question because the circumstances are so unique.

spirituality.com host: Exactly, yeah.

Phil: The demand is there that we have to prove every day, we cannot rely on the healings that Jesus did two thousand years ago, as much as those inspire us today. We can’t rely on what our fore-Christian Scientists did decades ago, we cannot rely on that. We have to prove it daily. That demand is there. Sure, our track record may not be perfect, but it is so wrong to take in one gulp all of Christian Science healing over this hundred plus years and just say that because some cases were not healed I guess it doesn’t work. It does work. And it has worked so consistently. It is a marvel to this age. It shouldn’t be, because more people should realize what it is. But I think that the resolve, if there has been a case, if this individual is talking about a case that they know of where prayer did not succeed, then if you know that the truths behind that prayer have healed, and that they are capable of healing in your own life and others, that I hope it comes to you, as it has to me, to be resolved to prove it more every day. It does not come to me to turn away from it. I’ve seen too much. I’ve seen so much that I cannot call this coincidence, I can’t call it a rose-colored-glass-look at the world, and positive thinking. I’ve seen so much change through prayer that I know that I can do more. I know that I can take this further. And that’s why the resolve is with me every day to prove more of what I know this to be.

spirituality.com host: That’s good. And again, it is so dependent on that individual who’s being prayed for, and their own personal decision as to what form of treatment they most desire and rely on. I think that’s so important, too.

Phil: You bet.

spirituality.com host: OK, let’s see. Let’s take another question. We have one from Judy in Missouri and she wants to know what the healing was when you were a teenager. Do you want to briefly describe that?

Phil: People are listening, aren’t they?!

spirituality.com host: They’re listening, they’re responding, yes!

Phil: And I’ve told this story a few other places—periodicals--but, as a teenager I became very depressed. And I’m sure any professional who would have examined me at the time would have referred to it as a clinical depression with suicidal tendencies. It’s a story, quite honestly Ingrid, that I don’t like telling a whole lot anymore because it seems like a whole different person that I’m talking about. It’s just simply not me. But for those who want to know, I was actually a sharpshooter and had that classification. I had a lot of weapons around because my dad was a policeman. I don’t anymore, just for the record. But I remember taking one that I got my sharpshooter status on, and the gun was to my head and I was pulling the trigger. You know, for anyone who’s used firearms, you know where the breakpoint is, and I came right up to it. It wasn’t fear that stopped me, it was simply the question of there has to be something better to life. There has to be something of a God around. I can’t believe that it’s just this—that’s all there is. That was the beginning of a search, because I not only put the gun down—didn’t make life easy, I still had all the challenges to deal with, and the depression—but from there I began to find help. I began to find a means. And from there I went into the military and I remember reading this little tiny book called Science and Health. It was little tiny because the only thing that they would allow you in the military. I didn’t understand the words. I didn’t understand the vocabulary. I wasn’t a good student. And I’ll tell you, Ingrid, the places I did understand, the words just became translucent. It was the beginning of a change of life from a very introverted, very self-centered approach to life, to I hope what people would call today—I’ll let others judge that—of being far more outward, far more caring about other people.

spirituality.com host: Well, it certainly does sound that way, and thank you for sharing that. It sounds like it was a deeply meaningful, pivotal moment in your life. You know someone in Boston is asking about that. They say you had a dramatic healing that brought you into Christian Science and Mary Baker Eddy also had a dramatic healing, and they’re referring to her nearly-fatal fall on the ice. “Do you think it takes something dramatic to gain the inspiration necessary to have effective healings under Christian Science care?”

Phil: No, that would be way too stereotypical--that individuals come into a greater reliance on God, a realization of their wonderful relationship with God from all walks of life, all situations. Some are openly dramatic, others are so deeply meaningful and individual and come through the quiet of prayer. But I think in this world, Ingrid, a world that does lean on matter a lot, that looks to medical marvels and so forth, I think a life saved through prayer—whatever the circumstances—is a marvel, is something to be marveled at. It is dramatic. And it should not be ho-hum, it should not be something that we just take in stride. It is something that says, “God is here.” It says, “His Christ is here.” It says that God’s love is available, and you cannot be without it, no matter what the circumstances. We know Paul said that: You can never be separated from God’s love. But healings like this prove it. Healings like this tell us: It’s here, it’s alive, it’s available. And I just want to do everything in my power to make sure, in my life, to make sure that others around me know that and feel it.

spirituality.com host: And isn’t it true that that, maybe, grain of faith in God then grows with each experience, each healing, no matter how dramatic they are, to this deeper spiritual understanding of God and our relationship to Him, that unselfed love that you spoke of that leads to maybe even going beyond needing healing, to just wanting to know more about His nature and our relationship.

Phil: Along that line, people talk about being born again. I’ve never found that to be a one-time occasion. Healings that occur in Christian Science are proof of a constant progression and upward path for each of us. It isn’t just one event, it’s not just one big, dramatic event, it’s a succession of events that result in physical, moral, spiritual changes in your life--actual practical changes. But behind that, beneath it, what’s really going on is that deepening relationship with God.

spirituality.com host: Absolutely. You know we have a comment from someone who just heard you share your story and they say, “Thanks so much for sharing your pivotal moment (lots of exclamation points). That was so helpful and very much touched me.” So it’s nice to get comments, not just questions. And we are getting very close to the end of our hour here, but I have quite a few more questions, if you’re able to stay on a little longer, Phil?

Phil: Sure, happy to.

spirituality.com host: Happy to take some more questions then, thank you. A listener in Colorado is asking about how you got Science and Health and wondered whether your parents were Christian Scientists?

Phil: Just in brief, my mother was introduced to Christian Science shortly before I went in the military—not shortly, a few years before that, but she started to get more interested in it. So just before I left she handed me this tiny edition of Science and Health.

spirituality.com host: The military pocket edition?

Phil: Yes.

spirituality.com host: That’s great. A listener says—back to the healthcare legislation: “Is it true that Christian Scientists are only seeking an amendment and are not seeking an opt-out?”

Phil: I think we’re open to all options here. I think a question like that would take a long time to answer, but in short, we’re open to both of those prospects. It’s just a matter of what is feasible today and under the present circumstances. But we have some very hard-working people in Washington, DC, that are just seeking out what they can and what is possible at this particular time. I don’t know—not everyone realizes the process of working with government is not just going in and putting your fist down and demanding something. It’s a process of working with individuals to help them understand what Christian Science is, and also seeing where it fits in, and where it may not fit in at this time. The important thing to realize is that this is not just a one-time only event. That we are constantly working to lift up the thought of the public and we do this through government lawmaking. So rather than thinking of this as just a one-time event, it either works or doesn’t work, to see it as an ongoing effort to leaven the thought of others to the possibility and the practicality of reliance on prayer for healthcare.

spirituality.com host: Right. That’s good. Here’s a question that I think may be important just to circle back to, to clarify. Bill from Portland says: “Am I correct in assuming you would treat someone in a hospital if requested by the patient but refuse providing treatment if they were being administered drugs or undergoing medical procedures? And could you share a healing in such a situation?”

Phil: No, what I was trying to do was trying to illustrate the individuality of these situations and of the importance of being there for individuals, of providing for them. I think we get into the technicality of do you treat a patient or not? It’s sort of a litmus test of whether I’ll help them or not. There are lots of ways that I can help individuals, and by talking to them, by reading to them, by explaining, by giving them some ideas to work on themselves, by loving and nurturing. The other one is by actually treating them through prayer in Christian Science, and praying for them other ways. I just want to emphasize the importance of that love, that unconditional love of that individual, rather than giving anyone the impression that a patient would call me and say, “I’m in a hospital,” and I would quickly say, “Whoops, sorry, I can’t help you.” It’s not that way with me and I would never want my practice to be perceived of in that way. That would be callous, it would be cold, it would not be Christian.

spirituality.com host: You know, here’s a comment in the interest of really giving voice to our listeners today, a comment from Laurie in Florida, and her experience she shares here. She says: “I hope this experience might help with regard to the explanation that all cases are unique. My brother was seriously injured while serving in the military and was not able to ask for a Christian Science practitioner’s help. My parents talked with a practitioner who determined that my brother would want her help. He had attended a Christian Science Church and Sunday School during his life, and she prayed for my brother for many months, and we saw continued healing after the medical doctors had said that there was nothing more they could do.” So, again, each case is unique and thank you Laurie for sharing that.

Phil: That is, I appreciate that. And it’s so important to realize that, too, so that we do not end up with any kind of perception that this is a callous approach to a person’s need.

spirituality.com host: Here’s a question from Alicia in California, and I think it’s an important one because we did touch on class instruction. She wants to know a little bit more about what it is, what are the requirements, if there are any, and does it help with healing, and how can I find out more? Maybe I can just jump in for a second, Alicia, and say that we do have an issue of the Christian Science Sentinel coming out in a couple weeks that will address questions about what Christian Science class instruction is, so you might be looking for that in your local Christian Science Reading Room. But Phil, what would you have to say about it?

Phil: The way of going about that you’re absolutely right that The Christian Science Journal, a monthly magazine, contains a list of practitioners and authorized teachers of Christian Science.

spirituality.com host: And those teachers are available, right Phil, to call and ask those questions? Certainly any one of them I think would be happy to answer your questions.

Phil: Absolutely. And you won’t find teachers soliciting for pupils. They’re not there to sort of grab you into their class, but they are there to answer questions, and for you to get to know them. It’s important to not shy away from that, that you don’t have to be afraid of it. They’d be happy to answer your questions and get better acquainted with you, so that you can have free choice through your own prayer of which teacher is right for you. But class instruction is a beautiful time. It is a wonderful time. It is a feast of having, as I said before, these wonderful tools that enable you to demonstrate more consistently the Science of Christ that Christian Science is, the ability to heal more systematically, more consistently in God’s name.

spirituality.com host: And the maximum number of students is thirty. And as far as requirements, I mean, again, that’s probably really up to the—certainly having a proclivity towards wanting to know a whole lot more about Christian Science, right? And a discussion that would take place with a teacher and a prospective student.

Phil: Yes, you said it beautifully.

spirituality.com host: We have another question from Ralph in California. And he says: “Christian Science practitioners are recognized by The Mother Church, but why not Christian Science nurses? In insurance cases, big insurance companies will not pay for Christian Science facilities because the nurses are not recognized like they were years ago. Can you explain? Maybe this recognition would help in the high expenses of Christian Science facilities.” I’m not sure if you want to get into that or not.

Phil: Well, just a little bit to explain that when I speak about Christian Science care and treatment I’m talking about the prayerful treatment that a Christian Science practitioner provides, and I’m talking about the care, the physical care, that a Christian Science nurse would provide, either a private duty nurse or an individual working Christian Science nurse in a Christian Science nursing facility--there are several through the country. The physical care they provide is mobility and cleanliness, bandaging of wounds--that sort of thing, but without medical treatments or procedures. And that represents what I mean by Christian Science care and treatment. As far as recognition, I’m not sure what the individual—can you tell from the question, Ingrid, what they’re getting at there?

spirituality.com host: I’m not exactly sure. I’m not aware of all the laws regarding that with nurses, but it sounds like they used to be recognized more than they are now, and that there’s a high cost in facilities because insurance companies don’t support that kind of care.

Phil: Oh, the change in insurance, yes. That gets very complicated, but there has been a shift from the 80s to a different kind of insurance mode called “managed care” today and that may be what they’re referring to.

spirituality.com host: Might be, yeah.

Phil: I guess I would go back, Ingrid, to that the recognition of Christian Science, the value of a Christian Science practitioner, the value of a Christian Science nurse, that recognition is something that largely is going to come by our healing practice embracing others. And it’s incumbent upon us to really see ways that we can engage the public more, to really show our love for God and our love for mankind in deeper ways. And I think that’s the way we earn recognition. Rather than thinking that we deserve it, let’s earn it through our practice.

spirituality.com host: Maybe that’s partly an answer to this next question from Dale in Maryland. They write: “If prayer treatment were in healthcare reform, what would insurance companies and government look at to determine that the treatment was effective?”

Phil: What would they look at to determine if it’s effective? That’s difficult to say, but I don’t think if fear is sort of the basis of that question, a concern about what might come or how intrusive that may be, I think that is something that it’s safe to say we are constantly looking out for, constantly guarding against. But it’s also safe to say that this is not something new. That Medicare, for instance, reimburses for staying in Christian Science nursing facilities where those facilities are Medicare providers. The private insurance companies for ninety years have reimbursed Christian Science practitioners, nurses, and facilities, and done so without intrusion. So we have a long history of where there has not been over-intrusion. But it would be wrong of me to say that it is something that we take for granted. We don’t. We do have to watch that and make sure that that doesn’t occur.

spirituality.com host: Right, that’s good. All right, let’s just take a couple more questions. This is interesting. Joan from Denver says: “Praying for others is an essential part of my spiritual practice. How can I be certain that I am praying and not treating?”

Phil: You know, that is a great question. I would say it’s a great question, Ingrid, for another program.

spirituality.com host: Probably, not totally related.

Phil: I’m really not trying to put it off, I just think it really is an in-depth question about where is—my prayer for others is a love for them, treatment involves a more detailed expression of that love, specifically treating that individual through prayer, but I’m not sure that it’s within the framework of this discussion. It’s maybe a different program.

spirituality.com host: Let’s end with this question, which is a really good basic question. It’s something I might have asked you at the beginning, but it’s a good one to end on. It’s from Dana and there’s no location, but she says: “If Christian Science prayer isn’t faith healing, what is it? And how do Christian Scientists use prayer?”

Phil: Oh, that’s a great question. The Discoverer and Founder of Christian Science, Mary Baker Eddy, wrote an article at the end of her life on earth. It was three months before she passed away. It’s called, “Principle and Practice.” And in that article she makes a big distinction between what she called “faith cure” and Christian Science. This idea of just believing in something, the idea of just hoping that it happens, was not to her, and it’s not to me, Christian Science. It is based on a fact that God is unconditional Love. It is based on the fact that He is our one and only Mind. It is also based on the fact that that Love reaches us right here on earth, and that it is up to us to prove it every single solitary moment. This is what we’re doing, is learning how to put that into practice every day, because God is a constant, because He is always there for us. We just don’t say that He is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. We actually have the opportunity to practice that, to reflect that omnipotence, that omnipresence, and that omniscience every day. And that is what separates us out from a common definition of the term “faith healing” which as I said before makes it look like God is arbitrary, maybe He’ll help you, maybe He won’t, maybe it’s His will that we die under Him. We don’t know. I don’t subscribe to that, never have. In fact, the God that I know and the God that saved my life, was a recognition, as Paul said, that neither life nor death nor anything can separate us from the love of God (see Rom. 8:38, 39 ). I believe what Paul said because I’ve proved it. And I know I’m not alone. Others have proved that. And that’s what makes it a Science, and that’s what lifts it beyond that common definition of faith healing.

spirituality.com host: I was going to ask you for some final thoughts but I think you’ve just given them to us. Unless you have something else you’d like to add, that was wonderful.

Phil: Thank you.

spirituality.com host: Don’t know if you have anything else you’d like to say before we close?

Phil: I like that closing, too!

spirituality.com host: It was excellent. We just are so grateful that you were with us. Again, just to remind everyone, today’s guest was Phil Davis, a practitioner and teacher of Christian Science, and Manager of the Committee on Publication for The First Church of Christ, Scientist, in Boston, Massachusetts.