Ginny Luedeman, a mother of six, with 16 grandchildren, talked recently with Sentinel Radio's Rita Polatin about dating, and about relationships in general. Ginny is a Christian Science practitioner and lecturer who lives in Salem, Oregon. Here are excerpts from their conversation:

Rita: For some people, dating is a frustrating experience. How can we all have productive, happy, satisfying dating experiences, as well as good relationships—whether someone is anticipating marriage or just in everyday life?

Ginny: There's always this idea that we have to find somebody who will make us whole—our "other half." I think this is one of the big stumbling blocks in establishing good relationships. So, for me, it really begins with: "Who am I?" and, "Where am I coming from?" It's a bit like MapQuest—when I travel, I usually go online to figure out where to go. But I need to know where I'm starting from, as well as where I'm going.

You know, you turn on the TV or movies or Internet, and everything says we're coming from this glob of DNA, this physical stuff that needs to be a certain size, look a certain way, and be a certain color—and maybe even a certain age in order to feel loved or whole in this world. And then we're going to meet somebody, maybe, who likes our stuff or we like theirs. It's pretty iffy and scary if we're thinking we're just a physical body with nothing more going for us than this DNA stuff. I tried it that way, and it didn't work for me.

Rita: Let's say someone's in college or just out of college, and perhaps they have the desire to find some significant other.

Ginny: Well, people call me for prayer all the time, and they say, "I really want to meet somebody." And sometimes they make lists: I want him or her to be kind, and I want him or her to be this, and he or she must have these wonderful, wonderful qualities, and so on. And I can't ever pray from that basis—trying to get somebody what they want even if it seems good. To me, prayer is an acknowledgment of what God is already doing, which includes a creation where His children are complete.

When Jesus said, "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32), we could almost translate that, "You shall know your completeness, and it will make you free from thinking that you're missing something." And then the joy, and the buoyancy, and the relationships naturally come into our experience, just as sunshine naturally breaks through the clouds and we see the beautiful view or the completeness of everything where it should be, naturally.

Rita: And divine Love doesn't walk in and out of our lives, It has qualities of endurance that survive the hard times.

Ginny: Right. It's a bit like having a best friend. When you look at somebody you really, really love, you see those spiritual qualities. And they grow deeper and deeper as the years go by, as you discover their fullness. There's so much joy and deep satisfaction in understanding another's spiritual identity. It's way more than just a surface thing.

So dating is a place to practice where you're going in your recognition of what God is doing. It's a place to test our love of what is good and lasting in ourselves and in others. It's a place to share love, but with such respect for each other's spiritual identity that you wouldn't go to places in the dating experience sexually that don't represent your expression of life and love as full of God's lasting "commitment qualities"—tender, unselfish qualities, and so on.

Those are the real feelings and things in dating, or in any relationship, that last. The material stuff just can't substitute for the real thing. It's sometimes said that relationships are like two trees growing next to each other. Their branches intermingle, but they don't depend on each other for the nourishment from the ground. I love that idea when it comes to relationships.

Rita: Could it be a simple as saying every day, "God, whom should I be with?" or, "What should I be doing?"

Ginny: I think so. Or we could take it a step higher and ask God, "Who am I, really?" —and then trust His parenting to guide us to be with those who will see what our true value is, which is our spiritual qualities. But I've found we have to learn to listen.

Sensuality is like being trapped in an unsatisfied body with feelings you can't escape from without sexual activity—it doesn't feel good when the physical body seems to be a master instead of a servant. Sensuality isn't love. Still, if we feel sensual feelings, we don't have to be afraid of them. We have the right to be in control of those feelings, to be the master of our human condition as long as we are in this stage of existence. Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures puts it this way: "Exercise this God-given authority. Take possession of your body, and govern its feeling and action" (Mary Baker Eddy, p. 393).

There's nothing out of control there; and there's great sense of authority in that statement, isn't there? It's always good to be the master of the body and our thoughts of our body in all of our daily activities, and especially in dating.

Rita: And in some ways, the body seems to be insatiable.

Ginny: Yeah, but the cool thing is there is an answer. If you seem to be addicted to certain behavioral or thought patterns, the answer is to accept that God, who is Spirit, got there first, and His angel messages are always coming to you, showing you the way both to be loved and to love others.

A relationship can seem very satisfying physically, but emotionally and spiritually be leading you nowhere. If you get pure water, it has nothing added to it. So pure relationships are relationships that come from infinite Love, which is the only love there is. Love is God, and real love fills all space. And you feel satisfied, whole, and complete in the dating process, or in marriage, or in being single, or wherever you are, when you've tuned in to the purity, the real thing. Then you know how to love.

Rita: Let's look at today's electronic landscape. Advances in technology have changed the "playing" field radically. We have readier, speedier access to others, yet our communication is often more remote and impersonal. Instead of forming relationships face to face, it can be done remotely—at long distance even—with seemingly less accountability. Take the recent phenomenon among teens called "sexting." How can parents help their kids who are caught up in this sort of thing?

Ginny: I know what you mean about the playing field. I think what we're really talking about here is the fact that the deeper meaning of relationships can be missing when the communication is only technological. The deeper, or the spiritual, elements may be lacking in these communications.

Not that they're on the same level. But I like to think of erotic photos as a bit like cartoons. Cartoons are depictions of something that's imagined, but not the real thing. In the same way, erotic images are limited and distorted views of love, and they don't say much about what's real and lasting. In a way they're statements of a longing for value and appreciation by the one sending them, and a diminished and limited view of what we are really all about.

A spiritual perspective helps parents stay calm in these situations, and this calm helps them find ways to communicate to their kids a higher ideal of what love is. With an unimpressed more spiritual attitude, followed by a study of spiritual qualities that counter sensuality, you can begin to loosen the hold of the false attraction to materialism. For me, the important thing is to pray to understand that it's the attraction to what is unreal and false that causes anyone to think that love, or anything good, is found in the sexual content of a relationship, whether it's pornography, "sexting," or whatever form of materialism they are dealing with.

Rita: Could you comment on breakups?

Ginny: Trust isn't always easy when we're set on things going in a certain direction. I've experienced how challenging letting go and moving on can be. The truth is that you are complete, and so is the other person in his or her spiritual nature. Therefore, you are both satisfied now—not dependent upon each other.

If we're going in different directions spiritually or emotionally, we can simply say, "That's not where I'm going," and move on, trusting our completeness will express itself in good and lasting relationships that are intimate, deep, and kind. Don't settle for standards that are less than what you know is right. You can't lose love by being true to yourself and to your sense of good.

Rita: But how do you feel good about yourself, or have the desire to keep dating, when you've been rejected many times?

Ginny: God's love is constant. I always try to start with God for my answers. In prayer, it's important to counter any feelings of rejection and replace those feelings with solid, spiritual concepts such as fullness, completeness, lasting satisfaction, forgiveness, and buoyancy. Then we can go about expressing them.

When something bad happens in a relationship, I consider it to be like static to music. It isn't part of our "love life," which is a forever thing we all have. It's an opportunity to tune in, learn more, about the spiritual nature of love, and then to live that love whether alone or with others. In truth, we're always loved, in love, and lovable, and we each can prove that fact in our relationships.

Rita: What about those who have been married and divorced? Maybe more than once. How do they negotiate the dating world?

Ginny: Sometimes we feel spent or used when we've been married and divorced. I struggled with this after my first marriage. It helped me to recognize that my identity isn't material DNA, but spiritual qualities. I'm forever "undivorced from Truth" (see Christian Science Quarterly, "Explanatory Note"). I love that idea! Undivorced from Love. Spiritual qualities are our true identities, and they are never depleted or used up. They're ever new and unspent, forever coming to each of us from our divine Father-Mother God, who makes all things new.

So I think it's wonderful for folks to never give up on expressing love. We are always in Love, and it's natural and wonderful to express delightful, inclusive love at all times of our lives.

Rita: When couples are dating, how do they figure out the physical side of their relationship?

Ginny: There just isn't a you-should-do-this-and-not-that kind of answer to this question, but I'll give it my best shot. I find the best guide to be the question "What expresses the most spiritual sense of love?" in each situation. What is lasting, and what says, "I love you," for all the right reasons, is what leads to lasting and deep relationships whether dating or married.

That tender place of expressing love is only found in understanding that we are what God is causing us to be, and not sexual identities. We are each complete expressions of all of God's male and female qualities, "male and female created he them" (Gen. 1:27). We are made to love because we are complete.

Everything on TV, in the movies, etc., promises us that we can find love in things outside ourselves. But it just isn't there. There's only one source of love, and that is Spirit or God. Love isn't a thing, and as much as we try, it can't be found in things, including sex.

Rita: So, how close is too close?

Ginny: There is no formula. But for me it was about loving God first and then sharing that love with my dates. This weeded out those who wanted sex more than love really quickly, and I was left with relationships that were more spiritually based.

When I discovered that I'm the expression of the love that is God itself, then everything I did with my body became an opportunity to say, "This is what God is like" in this moment. Love isn't about getting but about expressing God. God is forever. So I got married, which is the most "forever" any relationship on earth can express.

Love is fantastic, and I love to be loved and to love. But love is also so very deep and kind. Love goes to the feelings we have about ourselves, and it tenderly heals us. Sexual experiences can bring these feelings to the surface. Some of us have been messed up when it comes to our concepts of ourselves, sex, and love. Healing is often needed and that's where prayer comes in.

Relationships that have a spiritual foundation are lasting and sound because they express a greater measure of divine Love. In marriage, where sexual experiences can be a natural expression of love, the spiritual foundation of the marriage is what truly lasts and satisfies.

Rita: Sometimes people think that if they get too spiritual, they're going to miss something.

Ginny: To them I say: "If you think there's something outside that's going to make you better, you might want to think again about where you're coming from, and think again about your completeness. Because with the spiritual qualities that come from God and constitute your true nature, there isn't any sense of want. You're complete, you are in Love. And with that understanding, you'll know how to take the steps that prove that completeness. So dating and marriage and all the outside activities are really a statement that you're making as individuals about who you are as God's children, and where you're coming from as expressions of God's goodness."

God's love is constant and totally satisfying, and we can count on that love to show us how to love and be loved in all of our moments. css