How hymns provide comfort and healing
Peter Hodgson
spirituality.com host: Hello, everyone! Welcome to another spirituality.com live question and answer audio event.
Our topic today is how hymns provide comfort and healing. There’s a verse in the Bible that I think captures the joy that hymns can bring when we’re facing a challenge. It’s from the book of Psalms: “The Lord will command his lovingkindness in the daytime, and in the night, his song shall be with me.”
Anyone who has been awake in the night, maybe praying for healing or for someone else to be healed, knows how important it is to have God’s song with us.
And Peter Hodgson, our guest, is fully able to talk with us about how hymn makers through the centuries have endeavored to capture that divine song. Dr. Hodgson has degrees from both English and American colleges, and he has taught hymnology and related subjects for over 40 years. He also has a special interest in hymns by Mary Baker Eddy. So we’re in for a treat.
Peter, it’s good to have you here. To get us started, would you like to make a few comments?
Peter Hodgson: Thank you for that nice introduction. Yes, there are a few little points I’d like to make about hymns. The first one is, what is a hymn? Hymns have been defined differently through the ages. And the word, of course, goes back, way back, to the Bible—you’ll find the word used in the Bible. But today, we tend to think of a hymn as a congregational song. And that’s very important. It is a song for the congregation—not primarily for the choirs or for the soloists or for the organist, but for the congregation. So we need to keep that in mind.
Now a hymn has two parts to it. First is the text and, most important, it’s the words that always come first. And then it has a tune. So we have text and tune. That is so important to understand: that a hymn—when you say hymn, you mean text and tune, words and music. If you want to talk about a hymn text, just the words, that’s fine; or a hymn tune, that’s fine, too.
Another point that I’d like to make is that good hymn texts are always dependent on the Bible. They can be traced back to the Scriptures. And I’ve had the joy and pleasure over the past few years of tracing one hymnal’s texts back to the Scriptures in a very orderly way, I will say, because I’ve always used the author first, and then commentators, and then my own intuitive feel about things as a subordinate factor last. I always go to the author first, and say, What did the author say his or her text was based upon? And very often they will tell us.
The other point I would like to make is that it is very important that a text be married—we use that word in hymnology—to a good tune. So we have text and tune. We have the tracing of text back to the Bible, the original source of all hymns. And then we have this very important factor of text and tunes being married in a very harmonious and compatible way.
spirituality.com host: That’s very interesting, and not something I ever really understood before. And we have a lot of questions, and we’re grateful to all of you for sending them. This is from Lucile in California. She’s saying, “Do you think the wonderful traditional hymns will always be popular? It seems as though more modern types of music are coming into church services today.”
Peter: Good question. And every committee that has to compile a hymnal—and remember that most denominations do have their own hymnals—is faced with this question. They’re always sifting and sorting as they go through the process of what they’ve inherited from the previous hymnal, and what they’re looking forward to by way of a new hymnal. Good text and good tunes, I’m convinced, will always last: “O God, our help in ages past” (Isaac Watts, Christian Science Hymnal, No. 213) that’s one that comes straight to my mind; a carol that’s very popular about this season, “Joy to the world” (Isaac Watts, No. 417). I’m quite sure that words like that wedded to music that we’ve become very familiar with will remain with us. But it shouldn’t stop us from exploring a wonderful new repertoire of hymns, because today new hymns, text and tunes are being written and composed in great number. So while we will preserve the best, we must look forward, I think, to including new hymns as we go forward.
spirituality.com host: Stephen in Milwaukee is asking, “Why do some hymns have more than one tune? My original church used one tune I was very familiar with. Then I joined a different church and they use a different tune.”
Peter: This speaks exactly to what we were saying a moment ago about the marriage of text and tune. And in most cases, I think you’ll find a text that has become very familiar to us like “O God, our help in ages past”—it will be married to that tune. That text and that tune will go together. You may to try to remarry the text to another tune, but probably without too much success. The congregation will resist it.
However, there are a lot of hymn texts that could be reset to other tunes. So it’s an interesting question. And, quite often, one denomination will develop a familiarity with a certain marriage—text and tune—and then as the inquirer mentioned, you may go to another denomination, and that text may be married to another tune.
However, I will say this: it appears more and more, over the past half century or so, that the different denominations are taking the texts and the tunes together and including them in their hymnals. It is a wonderful question, and I know exactly what you’re talking about. I grew up in the Church of England until I was in my late teens. And then I became a student of Christian Science and had the wonderful Christian Science Hymnal to play from. And it was an interesting experience for me. As I saw some of the tunes that I was familiar with in The English Hymnal, the great hymnal, wedded to new words in theChristian Science Hymnal, I did get used to it very quickly, and for the most part, I’m comfortable with that.
spirituality.com host: I’d just like to ask a follow up. Is there a cultural difference? For example, speaking of England, would there be tunes in England that would be more familiar to people there, and then tunes in the United States—you might have two tunes because of different cultures?
Peter: Absolutely. Absolutely. When the 1932 Christian Science Hymnal was being compiled, there were two committees—one in London, and one in Boston. And it was very interesting to see how the English committee would reflect their familiarity with certain texts and tunes, a lot of them derived, by the way, from The English Hymnal, and other English hymnals. And then, of course, in the United States where different hymnals were used, the same texts would be used with different tunes.
We got around that, as it were, in the 1932 Hymnal by having alternative tunes. This rather goes back to the point that was being mentioned a moment ago. So we have, for instance, “Rock of Ages,” which is a wonderful, wonderful text. And, incidentally, though, I have to say this very quickly, it is not the Augustus Montague Toplady text that we use the in Christian Science Hymnal. It is the text by Frederick Root, which is a very different text. But it does use that phrase, “Rock of Ages.” That was not a text that was peculiar to Toplady or to Root—it came right out of the Bible. Root simply picked up that text. But both men, Toplady, of course—a century before, 150 years before—and Root used the same tune. And it was interesting how in this country, at any rate, that tune called “Rock of Ages,” or “Toplady,” was very familiar to Americans.
But in England, there was a different tune. And the 1932 committee resolved this concern by including both tunes. And they added one more, I think at the behest of some continental congregations who wished to sing another tune. So we have three tunes to “Rock of Ages.”
spirituality.com host: How interesting. Well, Julie in Syracuse, New York, is asking, “What is it about hymns that makes them so compelling? I find it to be a more emotional experience when singing them than with any other music. Is that part of what makes them so powerful and loved for so long?”
Peter: I think you’re absolutely right. A good hymn text not only will make reference to the Bible in some way or another, but it will also speak directly to your heart, to your mind, to your spirit—and to some spiritual need and to some emotional need. And therefore, because of the relevance of these words—and that’s the important thing, these words must be relevant— because of the relevance of these words, and particularly if they’re married to a good tune, they begin to speak to us very intimately. And we find, often—I’m sure many people do—you find yourself waking up in the night perhaps singing quietly a familiar hymn, because it’s so much a part of you, you’ve really absorbed that message.
I would say this—I think it’s very important to understand that good hymns are a little different from, say, good art songs. Now that doesn’t mean to say that hymns aren’t well-crafted, they must be well-crafted—the text and the tunes. But they are not a collection of great art songs. That’s another repertoire, of the great lieder, the German lieder writers’ art songs. They’re wonderful songs. But hymns are not of that kind. And they do speak directly to us as individuals, as lay people. That is really the essence of a hymn, that it must speak directly to us.
spirituality.com host: Just briefly, what is an art song? I’ve never heard that expression before.
Peter: Ah, well, lieder is the German word for art song. And Schumann, and Schubert, and Hugo Wolf and many other wonderful 19th-century German composers wrote these art songs. And they can either be song cycles like Dichterliebe, Love of a Poet, of Schumann or they can be collections of songs based upon some particular theme.
But in the 19th century there were many of these wonderful art songs composed. The reason I make the comparison is, we do find, on occasion, particularly among those of us who are musicians, the tendency to think that a hymn has got to be some kind of art song, a miniature art song, as it were. And the point I’m trying to make is that the hymn must have its own integrity. It must have its own wonderful sense of inner strength. But you can’t compare a hymn, either its poetry or its music, with the great art songs of the 19th-century German lieder writers.
spirituality.com host: From Lynn in Colorado, we’re getting this question: “Do you think that the words and the music together have a more healing effect than just one or the other?”
Peter: Well, that’s another wonderful question. I would say yes, because the music, if it is carefully chosen and wedded to the text, will enhance the text. However, I don’t want to underestimate the importance of the words, which, you know, in our church, and I’m sure in some other churches—and when I’m referring to our church, I mean the Christian Science Church; but I’m sure other denominations, too, must feel the same way, that their poetry in their hymnals, they’re like prayers. And really to us, I think particularly in the Christian Science Church, our Hymnal is our prayer book, particularly when we use it as the “Words Only,” and we do have that version, don’t we? We have various editions of theHymnal, but we have a “Words Only” edition. And that “Words Only” becomes almost like our prayer book. The Anglicans have their Book of Common Prayer, and many other churches have their prayer books. I think to us, the Hymnal is like a prayer book, as well as a book of congregational song.
But having said that, I do believe that putting the words and the music together raises the level of spiritual quality, particularly if the music is well crafted and the music is well chosen.
May I say one other thing here, though. I don’t want to be giving the impression that there’s only one kind of music for a hymn. I could digress for a moment, and get off into some hymn tunes that I’m sure some of our listeners would feel probably best stricken from the book.
But, you know, we go through different phases. And the wonderful gospel hymns, for instance, of the late 19th century, both their text and their tunes spoke to those congregations so powerfully. And we still have some of those gospel tunes in our book, I’m very grateful to say. And they do mean a great deal. There are many different styles of hymn, many different styles of music, so we have to be careful when we talk about the best music, the right music. The words themselves very often will dictate which music is more appropriate or not.
spirituality.com host: Oh, that’s very helpful. Then from Rob in Antalya, Turkey: “Thomas Carlisle once said, ‘Music is the speech of angels.’ And from Science and Health, we know that angels are ‘God’s thoughts passing to man.’ Do you think music can be considered the language of God?”
Peter: Oh, I love that. So I say, unequivocally, yes, of course. Having said that, we have to keep in mind, of course, that music comes in many, many, many different ways and shapes and forms. There are many different kinds of music. In fact, when I was teaching music, we often referred to musics, plural. This is an ethnic term. And, of course, we realize that in different countries and different parts of the world, there are different kinds of music. And these different kinds of music speak to those cultures and those areas in a very wonderful and intimate way.
Now coming back to, for instance, this country or to the Western Hemisphere, the United Kingdom, the United States, we know that within our countries, there are many different styles of music. There are some kinds of music, of course, that some would say are simply not music at all. But I think what we need to realize is that we’ve got to constantly lift our sense of music. I think—using a phrase from Mrs. Eddy’s textbook [Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures], to “spiritualize” music—this is not an ethereal thing, it’s not an abstract thing at all. It’s simply raising the level of interest and the level of quality that music can reflect. I will say this, it’s very important to understand that music in and of itself—that is, material or human sound—is not where the beauty lies. Just as with the rose someone once said, “The beauty of the rose is in the eye of the beholder.” So with regard to music, it’s exactly the same—material human music—it’s in the ear of the listener. But continually raising the level of understanding of what music is about, hopefully, eventually, we shall arrive at the point where, as Mrs. Eddy said in one of her messages to The Mother Church, 1900, I think it was, or 1901: “Music is divine” (Message to The Mother Church for 1900, p. 11).
spirituality.com host: Aha! Well, from Frances in North Carolina, speaking of Mrs. Eddy, she’s asking, “Did Mrs. Eddy write hymns, or just the poems? Who decided which ones to set to music?”
Peter: OK, two-part question. First of all, Mrs. Eddy often referred to her poems as hymns. Now that’s using the word hymn in a 19th-century literary way, which is perfectly legitimate, of course. I have defined hymn here, for the purpose of our talk, as text and tune, music and words. But she would often describe her poetry, some of her poetry, as hymns.
Now she decided early on, probably about 1889, 1890, which of her poems should go into the first Christian Science Hymnal. You probably know that the first Christian Science Hymnal was published in 1892. And it consisted of many texts and tunes from the Unitarian book that was then being used in the Christian Science services. There are some wonderful texts and tunes in that book. Many of them were transferred into the newChristian Science Hymnal. Some of them we still have today. But Mrs. Eddy wanted three of her hymns in that book. They were, “Shepherd, show me how to go”—“ ‘Feed My Sheep’ ” [No. 304]; “Saw ye my Saviour?” [No. 298]—that’s the Communion Hymn, isn’t it? And then there’s a third one, isn’t there? It’s just eluding me for the moment. May I consult my Hymnal here? I should know them all by heart. But I’m just looking up Eddy under texts. Yes, of course, “O’er waiting harpstrings” [“Christ My Refuge,” No. 253]. Those three she chose, and they were set by Lyman Brackett in the 1892 book.
Let’s see, the second part of that question had to do with who set them, was it?
spirituality.com host: Let me look. “Who decided which ones to set to music?”
Peter: I see. Well, first of all, Mrs. Eddy decided on those three. And then in 1903, she added a fourth hymn, her poem, “Blest Christmas morn” [“Christmas Morn,” No. 23]. That was added in 1903. And then in 1909, for the 1910 edition, one more was added, that’s right—“Mother’s Evening Prayer” [No. 207]. So we’re now up to five.
And then in 1932, the committee very diligently scoured Mrs. Eddy’s poetry to find more. And they found just two more—the poem “Love,” and then the other poem was …. Of course, that was “Brood o’er us with Thy shelt’ring wing” [No. 30] and “It matters not” [“Satisfied,” No. 160]. Those two were added in 1932. So they were selected, obviously, by a committee, because Mrs. Eddy had since passed on. So the decision was first Mrs. Eddy’s, and then subsequently the committee’s.
spirituality.com host: And did she have any say in the music, or is that something that was separately done?
Peter: She did have a say in the music. It’s very interesting, as long as she was with us, she was very interested in the Hymnal, far more, I think, than most of us realize. And she actually proposed a tune for “Mother’s Evening Prayer,” and we have the letters and the correspondence on that. [For] “Blest Christmas morn,” which was the 1903 hymn that was added, she asked her Board of Directors to find some music, and I think it was Mr. Armstrong who did his very, very best and found some tunes, submitted them to Mrs. Eddy.
But she wasn’t really happy with them. And so she turned to the organist of The Mother Church, Albert Conant, and asked him if he would set her words or find a tune. Well, actually, he did both. We have a tune by Albert Conant in our Hymnal, and we also have one that he chose. And he submitted them to her, and she approved them both. There’s a lovely story to that, but I don’t have time to tell it here. Perhaps it will appear in the new notes.
spirituality.com host: Then we have a question from Jean, who doesn’t tell us where she is, but we’re glad you’re with us anyway, Jean. And that question is, “How do you get over the hurdle of having words that go with the subject, but the music is unfamiliar to the congregation?”
Peter: Yes, that’s a very, very good question. In our particular Hymnal, the Christian Science Hymnal, we have a total of 429 items; we have 296 different texts; and we have 133 either different tunes or variations of tunes that are already in the book. Now it’s in that area of 133 where you’ll find a lot of tunes that are not so familiar to most of our congregation, simply because they are either number two or number three, or in the case of Mrs. Eddy’s texts, poems, where there are several multiple settings, number four, or number five, or number six, or sometimes, number seven setting. And they very seldom get sung.
Along this line, let me just add quickly, there is a wonderful hymn tune, at the very back of the book. It’s No. 429. And I’d love all of you who are familiar with the Christian Science Hymnal to look up that hymn tune. It is, however, the third tune for a text, and it never, ever gets used, at least not in my experience. I think in all the 55-odd years that I’ve been playing in Christian Science services, we might have sung it once. But it’s a wonderful tune. It just happens to be by a woman Christian Science composer—the only woman Christian Science composer in the book. And it’s a gorgeous tune. And I would strongly recommend that you might look at that.
But, again, the problem is the words are so important when you’re choosing them for Sunday or for Wednesday readings, and you want to get just the right text. But it might be helpful, perhaps, to have someone who’s familiar with the music just check out those hymns and perhaps caution you ahead of time as to whether the congregation is likely to be able to sing this easily. Perhaps we should go back to having hymn-singing practices. I know Ed Starner is doing this here in The Mother Church. He’s been doing it for some time, hasn’t he? A couple of years or more. And once a month, he’ll bring the local members together, and they’ll have hymn sings here. In fact, there’s one tonight, isn’t there? Not many of our branch churches, though, I think, have either the expertise or the time to do that. So this is a challenging question, and it deserves a fuller answer.
spirituality.com host: Well, let’s talk about that when we get toward the end here. We have a lot of questions waiting for answers. This one is from Peter in Philadelphia, and he says, “You say good hymn texts can be traced back to the Bible. Does that mean original hymns cannot be written outside of the Bible stories?”
Peter: Oh, not at all. Not at all. The point I would make, however, is that the strongest texts can show, in some way or another, a link to the Bible, either directly by using a verse or a passage from the Bible or a reference to some ideas from the Bible. No, it certainly isn’t true that you can’t write original texts, but I think most hymnologists have discovered that the best hymn texts are based on the Bible, on the spirit …. And again, I think the important thing, and I realize I mustn’t carry on too long, but the important thing is understanding what is the spirit of the hymn. And the spirit of the hymn really should find its roots in the Scriptures.
spirituality.com host: So it’s really the spirit of the Bible in a way, sometimes a direct connection, but sometimes a spiritual idea from it.
Peter: Right. Right.
spirituality.com host: Well, Susan in Wellesley is asking, “Can you tell us who are some of your favorite hymnal composers, and have you done writing on any of the hymn composers?”
Peter: OK, are we talking about texts or tunes, I wonder? No, I’ll answer that question.
spirituality.com host: Well, she says composers.
Peter: Oh, composers. Well, there we go. Some of my favorite composers—obviously, coming out the background that I do, I would say some of the English tunes that are in ourHymnal and others I’m very, very fond of, but by no means limited to that. I just found a hymn the other day, and recommended it to someone, that was written in the mid-’40s by a woman. It has a wonderful tune. Actually, she wrote the text, and it’s based on the Scriptures: “Seek ye first the kingdom of God.” And it has the most beautiful, simple tune to it. And I believe it was tried out in The Mother Church Sunday School a few weeks ago. But I’m looking always for music that speaks directly. It doesn’t have to be sophisticated or complicated. I love Bach chorales, but not many of them, I have to say in all honesty, are suitable for singing by congregations.
spirituality.com host: OK. She also asks if you’ve done writing on the hymns.
Peter: Oh, yes. Yes, I have. I’d be happy to respond to that more fully, perhaps in written form, if you want to know some of the things that I have written.
spirituality.com host: OK. This one is from the United Kingdom. It’s David Prince, who says, “Do you believe that hymns are capable of bringing about a healing? Is the Hymnalto be regarded as the same level as the Bible and Science and Health?”
Peter: Wonderful question, David. Thank you very much. I think many do regard theHymnal almost, in our church anyway, as a third textbook. That’s something I will leave for each one of you to decide. But can it bring about healings? There’s no question the words, particularly if they’re Bible-related, Bible-based, Bible-connected—in other words, they’re speaking to the spirit of what the Bible is all about. It’s all about God, it’s all about Christ, it’s all about the church. It’s filled with healing.
So if the texts are in some way reflecting these ideas, of course they’re going to bring about healing. There’s no reason why they shouldn’t. And particularly if they are set to healing music. Again, don’t let me limit thought on that regard. There are many different kinds of healing music. But the intent must be to bring about harmony and, ultimately, a sense of joy, as well as repose.
spirituality.com host: I think one thing that we might want to make clear, though, is that the Hymnal isn’t really the Bible and Science and Health, because the Bible and Science and Health really are the source books for our spiritual teaching from Mrs. Eddy and from Jesus and so forth. But the Hymnal is certainly a very powerful book that is very helpful in healing, wouldn’t you say?
Peter: I would, and we don’t want to take this discussion too far, because we could probably have a most interesting hour on this very one subject. When I give talks, I always say that the Bible and Science and Health are like this, and I hold up my hands clasped, just the way my teacher taught me to think of the Bible and Science and Health—our pastor in our church.
But I also think that the Hymnal is so closely, intimately related to our pastor that they really are inseparable—the three are inseparable. That’s why I say the Hymnal and the hymns are really inseparably connected to Scripture, and the three do go together. If we begin thinking of the Hymnal, the songs that we sing in our church, as something totally separate from our pastor, I think we’re heading in the wrong direction.
spirituality.com host: Well, Johanna in Texas is asking, “Do you know of any healing work that Mrs. Eddy did using hymns, her own hymns or the hymns of others?”
Peter: Oh, yes. Well, there is one lovely story that I think you’ll find in We Knew Mary Baker Eddy [p.186]—this is the one that comes quickly to my mind—and that is when she was staying with the Knapp family, and of course, Bliss Knapp was a child at that time, and she was having a difficult time. And one night retired, and evidently was not able to rest.
And in the morning, the Knapp family got around their organ as they did always, and everyone used to do, of course, in the 1930s, 20th century—get around your piano, sing hymns. And the hymn that they began to sing was, “Joy cometh in the morning” (No. 425). Now this is not just limited—it is not limited to a morning time, but “joy cometh with the breaking of light,” with the breaking of this wonderful sense of dawn coming, spiritual enlightenment.
Well, they sang this hymn apparently with such spirit, that Mrs. Eddy suddenly appeared at the top of the stairs and was healed by it. And some years later when Mr. Knapp, Ira Knapp, was having a difficult time, he wrote to Mrs. Eddy, and she reminded him of this event. And she said, Go back and sing this wonderful song, “Joy cometh in the morning,” which, by the way, is, of course, based on a psalm—you’ll find it in Psalms. She said, “Sing again the old sacred song … —and sing it in the spirit you had in N. Hampshire when you sung it years ago.” And apparently he had a healing.
spirituality.com host: Ah, that’s lovely. Now from Andrew in Elsah, Illinois: “Why does the Manual of The Mother Church state that the music shall not be operatic? I’ve always wondered about this. Thank you for being with us on the Internet today.”
Peter: Andrew, thank you for your question. I’m going to ask you if you will allow me to send you a four-page little paper [see link at end of article] that I did for a committee here just a few weeks ago, which speaks directly to this point [see link at end of article]. And I will say very quickly, though, for the benefit of the other listeners who are with us today, the Manual of The Mother Church speaks directly to The Mother Church. Now I’m talking about Article XIX, where it talks about “Music in the Church.” And the article starts off, as you well know, and you’ve quoted it partially, “Music in The”—and what does it say next—“Mother Church.” It doesn’t say branch churches. It says, “The music in The Mother Church shall not be operatic, but … of a recognized standard of musical excellence ….” I’m quoting this without my Manual being open in front of me.
There is, however, a very interesting history, to the way that Manual By-Law developed. And I would be very happy to share my little study with you. It’s a very important Manualprovision. But it does not speak to the branches. There is no reference in the body of theManual to the branch churches pertaining to music. You’ll find it in the Appendix to theManual in what is called the “Present Order of Services …,” where the music is referred to. By the way, it’s not in the order of service itself. Only a hymn is referred to—one hymn, two hymns, three hymns. And then after the order of service is finished, under that it says “The services should be,” and again, I’m quoting literally, “preceded and followed”—you see, it’s not part of the service, it’s preceding and following the service—“by organ or piano music of an appropriate character … where this is possible.”
But there’s a whole history here which I’d love to share with you. It’s a very, very interesting, and I think very important, issue that we should be looking at in our church.
spirituality.com host: And from Susanna in Chicago. She says, “This may be an impossible question to answer, but where did the tradition of hymn singing in churches originally come from?”
Peter: Well, it’s not really that impossible. It started way back in the Old Testament times. You see, the first hymnal was what? It was the psalms—the 150 psalms that we have in the Old Testament. That’s one of the oldest hymnals extant. We still have it. We don’t have the music unfortunately, although, there have been efforts over the years to try to understand what kind of music would have been used with those words. But you see, the psalms are really a hymnal, or several hymnals. And of course, they were not all written by David—we know that, though he was probably one of the major contributors.
Well, hymn-singing, then, started in the Old Testament. And of course it continued into the early years of Christianity. You will recall, I think, that Jesus, just prior to his trial and crucifixion and resurrection—what did he do? He sang a hymn; they all sang a hymn. It’s there for you to read in the Gospels. And again, I would say … let me just quote quickly. I’ll go to the New Testament. I’m reading now from Ephesians, you’re probably familiar with this: “Be filled with the Spirit; speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.” There’s Paul addressing the people of Ephesus.
And again in Colossians, we have another wonderful passage: “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.”
Now then, after the early Christian years, for about a thousand years, singing became the prerogative, really, of trained groups, monks in their monasteries and choirs in their cathedrals. And the congregations were rather left out of the picture.
And then of course, by the time you get to Luther, the Reformation, Luther says, “No, let’s have the people singing again.” And he writes some hymns, text and tunes. And that’s really where you have the beginnings of modern hymnody, back in the 15th century.
spirituality.com host: That’s very helpful. Here’s a question from Walter from Houston, Texas. “Have you ever, or have you heard of individuals getting inspiration in composing similar or other unique pieces of hymns or poetry, based on singing or hearing Christian Science hymns?” In other words, I think he may be asking, ‘Have Christian Science hymns ever inspired others to write music?’ I hope, Walter, that’s what you mean.
Peter: Yes, indeed. And I won’t mention anyone by name, but I am familiar with at least, at least one individual who’s written some wonderful orchestral pieces based on hymns, hymn tunes, and I think using the texts as partial inspiration. Oh, no, there are quite a number, because I’m thinking now of all the composers—many composers—who’ve written choral preludes. And there is a body of Christian Science music based on theHymnal that uses the hymn tunes. No, they’re a source of inspiration, a wonderful source of inspiration.
spirituality.com host: Mike in State College, Pennsylvania, is asking—and this is a tricky question. And I think we need to make clear here that Peter is speaking for himself, these are his ideas. And, Peter, you’ll want to make a point about that, perhaps, too. These are his ideas, and it’s not really representing the church’s view. So when I ask you this question, Peter, you’ll know what to do. It’s, “Do you think that if the Christian Science church included rap, hip-hop, and other contemporary music in our services, we would attract more young people?”
Peter: Thank you for reminding me. I meant to say this right at the very beginning: Everything I’m saying on this program—by the way, it’s a great joy to participate in this, I can’t tell you what a pleasure it is—but everything I’m saying is absolutely my own point of view. I do not represent the Church. And even when I’m talking about the Manual, it’s my own understanding of the Manual, and my own reading of the history of the Manual,and so on. So, yes, it’s very much my own thought.
Now with respect to this question. Over the years, I think I’ve become a little broader, a little more liberal in my thinking about what is appropriate. Now that doesn’t mean to say I don’t have very strong preferences, and I know many of my colleagues have very strong preferences. With respect to what will draw young people into our church, I’m not quite sure that we should be involving ourselves with modes of art that not everyone will feel comfortable with, and hoping that this will somehow do the trick, that it will somehow bring in the young people into our church.
I have to say very quickly that I’m familiar with a hymnal in England, in the United Kingdom, that did try to do something along these lines. I’m not sure they included hip-hop and things like that. But they did include a body of very contemporary music, hoping to bring in the young people.
Well, It turns out that it neither brought in the young people, nor held the more senior members. In fact, I understand they were actually able to do neither—they didn’t hold the interest of the more senior adult congregation, and did not bring in the young people.
So—Mrs. Eddy has a wonderful phrase, and I’m sure you’re all familiar with it. It’s in, I think it’s her first … yes, it’s her first address to the Original Mother Church, 1895—you’ll find it. And when she presents herself and this wonderful message, one of the few times that she actually went into her church, she says, Oh, this is such a beautiful church—I’m paraphrasing—the architecture, the painting and everything else, and the organ, and the music.
But then she suddenly stops and says, But these “must not be mistaken for the oracles of God. Art”—this is the phrase that I want you to remember—“Art must not prevail over Science. Christianity is not superfluous” (Miscellaneous Writings 1883-1896, p. 107). In other words, if we try to, I think, focus more on the art, and particularly contemporary art and contemporary music, hoping that this will do the trick, we may be disappointed.
spirituality.com host: Peter, there have been a couple of questions that we’ve had about the paper you were talking about—offering to Andrew—and we’re wondering if we might be able to post that on our website? I think what I’ll say to our listeners is please check the website, maybe in a few days, and we’ll see if there are copyright issues. If there are no copyright issues, we will be happy to see if we can post that for you. But look at the Events section, where we’ll have the notice, so that you can find out what’s there. And we’ll do everything we can to make that information available to you, or a summary of it, or something like that. So please rest assured we’re interested in trying to help you have that.
Now we have several questions about Violet Hay from the United Kingdom. And I thought that maybe you could just talk about Violet. You have a new book out that’s published by the Longyear Museum. It’s called Violet Hay. It’s a paperback. I have it right here in front of me. It’s a delightful book, and well done. There are a couple of people who have asked about specific hymns like “I love Thy way of freedom, Lord” (No. 136), and then there’s Hymn No. 64, “From sense to Soul my pathway lies before me.” So perhaps you could just talk a little bit about Violet and her background for us for a few minutes.
Peter: Oh, I’d be delighted to. Yes, I’ve just finished the book. I’ve been working on it for about 18 months, and had wonderful cooperation, actually from some of Violet Hay’s pupils in England—very, very precious people, and they’ve been very helpful to me.
Speaking specifically to the hymns—by the way, the book is not just about her hymns, but about her whole life and her contribution to the establishment of Christian Science in the British Isles. She was one of the key players in establishing our religion in the United Kingdom. But speaking specifically to her 7 hymn texts—by the way, she has 7. They’re all wonderful hymns. They were written, we believe—most of them are written at about the time our Hymnal was being revised in 1932. She was, in fact, the chairman of the committee in London. There were two committees. There was one in London and one in Boston when they were revising the Hymnal in the late ‘20s, and she was the chairman of the English committee.
But she did so much more. She contributed these wonderful 7 texts. And I’ve estimated, and you can do the same—this is not a scientific test—but I’ve estimated that of all the hymns in our Hymnal, apart from Mrs. Eddy’s, which, of course, are in a special group all by themselves, but apart from Mrs. Eddy’s, Mrs. Hay’s 7 hymns are probably sung with more frequency than any other hymns in the book. Now I may be wrong, but there’s a lot of incidental anecdotal evidence, I think, to support that.
The two hymns that you mentioned, “I love Thy way of freedom Lord,” was used during the Second World War by the airmen in the British Air Force. It was called the “Airmen’s Song of Praise.” It was never the official hymn, contrary to some stories that are out there. It was never the official hymn, but it was given to the chaplain of the Air Force by Mrs. Hay, and the chaplain agreed to distribute copies of this hymn to the pilots. Actually, of course, it was written back in the 1920s, but then it was republished during the War—in the early part of the War—about the time of the Battle of Britain. It’s a gorgeous hymn. The text, we believe, was also inspired by Mrs. Hay’s overcoming of a fear of heights. Apparently she had to do some repairs on her home, and it then involved climbing up a very tall ladder. And she was healed of this fear through Christian Science, and then wrote this text. That’s, again, an anecdote, but it was given to me in very good faith, and I’ve included that reference in the book.
“From sense to Soul” is almost, somebody said to me once, like a Christian Science classic. You know, Mrs. Eddy uses the words “from sense to Soul” many times in wonderful different contexts. You should look them up.
But then look them up, and then try looking again at Mrs. Hay’s hymn text, and you’ll discover there’s a wonderful sensitivity, I think, and wonderful perception of what this journey from sense to Soul is really all about. And it’s stated in language that is so direct, and so immediately appealing that I think it helps to account for its great popularity.
spirituality.com host: That’s very helpful. This is an interesting question from Australia. The individual is asking, “Tell me, I can’t read or sing music. Can the Hymnal still help me, or should I just forget it? I want to be able to sing and enjoy the hymns, but at the moment, it seems, I just don’t understand what everyone else is going on about.”
Peter: Yes, thank you for that question. May I once again gently ease into an issue that I think is so important in our church. We don’t have choirs, obviously. The choirs were phased out of our church in the late 1890s by Mrs. Eddy for good reason, and, again, I won’t go into that here.
So really the congregation is the choir. However, having said that, you know, choirs sing parts, don’t they—alto, tenor, bass, soprano. I wonder, really, what is the kindest and most Christian thing that we can do for those who are in a position such as this inquirer is in, where music is obviously a challenge for this person. They are sitting, or standing I should say, in church next to somebody who wants to break out into the tenor line or the alto line or the bass line, because they love the harmony. I wonder what this dear person is thinking. Shouldn’t we all be trying to sing the melody? Now I’m pausing a moment, because I’m beginning to hear some howls from out there—from some of my friends.
But my reason for saying this is not that we shouldn’t be musical, not that our hymns don’t have a wonderful sense of harmony, but I’m talking about the purpose of hymns. The purpose of hymns is to praise God, and it’s our response to God, isn’t it, and our companioning with our fellow Christians, our fellow Christian Scientists, our fellow human beings. And we should be thinking of them, I believe, as much as we’re thinking of our own desire to make wonderful harmony.
So in response to this wonderful question, I would urge everyone to support this person by singing a good, strong melody line, hopefully in a key that you can sing them in. Unfortunately, many of our hymns are in keys that are a little bit on the high side, and we can talk about that on another occasion. But don’t give up. Don’t give up. Hymns are very, very important. And even if you can only read the words and simply look at the notes for the moment—look at the way the notes rise and fall on the page, because most of our hymnals, of course, have music, don’t they, unlike many other hymnals in other denominations where you just have the words. You don’t have the music.
So don’t give up, is my response. And to my fellow Christian Scientists, please sing the melody for this wonderful person.
spirituality.com host: I think one thing, also, we could say is that while it’s great to have the music and the words wedded, just as you’ve been talking about, the words still can have a healing effect.
Peter: Absolutely. Absolutely.
spirituality.com host: Peter, is there anything else you’d like to tell us about Violet Hay before we close? We’re almost at the end of our time, but I just wondered if you had one other thing.
Peter: Well, I wonder what it is about Violet Hay’s poems that do speak to us so directly. Clearly, they are set to wonderful music. And by the way, Mrs. Hay was a wonderful musician. She played the violin and the piano, I’ve learned, as well as singing. And she chose all the tunes for her own texts. And she chose some wonderful tunes.
If you get a chance to read the book that I’ve written, you’ll see it includes a chapter on what motivated Mrs. Hay. What I believe, what I’ve been led to believe by talking with her pupils, by reading a lot of her unpublished papers and studying her—what is it that motivated Mrs. Hay? And though she was, indeed, the honorable Mrs. Hay by virtue of her marriage to Commander, the Honorable Sereld Hay, she was a woman of great practical sense. She was, of course, a Christian Science teacher, taught over 1,400 pupils during her long life—she passed on in her 96th year. But she was very practical. She was full of humor, as well as being a very spiritual woman.
And there’s a chapter in my book which deals with what I think motivated her, and it is one of the Beatitudes, “Blessed are the meek.” Now I’ve been doing a little bit of research on that word, and am still working on it. It is not what most of us think it means at all. The word meek has a great sense of power and majesty in it. Mrs. Eddy connects it with might and majesty. It also has a meaning of getting rid of yourself, getting rid of the false sense of self—emptying oneself of false reputation, and so on. And it seems like Mrs. Hay had absolutely no sense of false reputation, despite her wonderful connections and standing, she was a very meek woman, but she was a very strong woman, which, is, of course, what meekness also means.
spirituality.com host: Well, that’s very helpful, and it’s really a wonderful idea, actually. And we have one last question before we close. And this is from Linda, Sue, Star, and Mike in State College, Pennsylvania. And they’re asking, “Are any of the hymns originally written for the Christian Science Hymnal in hymnals of other denominations?”
Peter: The answer to that is no, for the most part. Two of Mrs. Eddy’s hymns, however, have found their way into at least one other hymnal. In fact, I found two or three hymnals. They were included in the hymnal for the Armed Services of the United States about 30 or 40 years ago. I think it’s “Shepherd,” and … I’m not quite sure what the other one is. It may be “It matters not.” But anyway, two of her hymns were included.
But I think what we have to do, to be very forthright and very honest, we’ve got to present our Hymnal and our hymns in a way that other denominational committees can feel are informative and helpful, and I believe showing the Biblical connection with our Hymnal is one of those great steps that needs to be taken, because this is where most other denominations are. By the way, many denominations now will be showing how their hymns and their hymnals relate to the Scriptures.
spirituality.com host: Thank you, Peter. And we’ve had a question from someone who’s asking how to find Dr. Hodgson’s book on Violet Hay. And it is published by the Longyear …
Peter: The Longyear Museum in Chestnut Hill—on Boylston Street, Chestnut Hill, Massachusetts. I don’t have it just in front of me, but…
spirituality.com host: They do have a website.
Peter: They have a website, yes.
spirituality.com host: And if you just go to Longyear Museum, you should be able to find it. I think they may even have a shop that you can order it through.
Peter: They do.
spirituality.com host: You can certainly check it out that way. And so, Peter, we’ve come close to the end of our time, and I wondered if you had any summary comments. And you and I had talked about carols before we began, and I wondered if you wanted to talk to us about carols, seeing as it’s Christmastime.
Peter: Well, there are a couple of things I’d like to suggest. Maybe before I do that, might I say that for those listeners that are really interested in pursuing hymnody—and by the way, I didn’t define the word hymnody when I started. Hymnody really refers to the collection of all hymns, the body of hymns, the repertoire of hymns. Hymnology refers to the study of hymns. And for those who are interested in hymnody and hymnology, or just learning more about hymns generally, there’s a society in this country called The Hymn Society of the United States and Canada, and we can probably post the address at a later point on the web. [See links below on this site.]
In Great Britain, of course, there is the Hymn Society of Great Britain and Ireland. And there are other societies. And I would strongly urge anyone interested in really delving into hymns that you become, perhaps, a member of these societies. Many, many amateurs and just lay people have joined these groups, and they share at meetings—papers and things like that.
Getting to carols: the thing that really impressed me—and I just refreshed my memory, I think it was yesterday. I was looking up the word carol, and I was thinking about “Joy to the World,” and “O Little Town of Bethlehem”—these wonderful carols that we tend to sing at this time. I was interested to be reminded that a carol very often involved dance. Carols did involve a wonderful sense of movement and lilt, and they were often accompanying dances, joyous dances. The one that comes to my mind right now is, of course, “Joy to the World.” And in one hymnal that I was looking at yesterday, the Chalice Hymnal, I noticed that when they compiled this hymnal about 15 years ago, they had a committee and they polled their members, and so on, and so on, this was the first hymn that was chosen: “Joy to the world, the Lord is come.” This wonderful hymn text by Isaac Watts with the tune by … actually, the tune is a compilation of two tunes out of the Messiah, by Handel. And someone arranged this—well, actually it was Lowell Mason. Lowell Mason arranged these two tunes, and made it into the tune that we now call “Antioch,” which, by the way, is where the Christians were first called Christians, I believe. So that’s a wonderful hymn.
Oh, and the other point I learned as I was reading about this, and by the way, because I’m talking with you about hymns, I have to say to you very quickly, I learn something new every day. It’s a wonderful study. You keep learning. I was reminded, or learned for the first time, actually, that Isaac Watts did not wish this hymn to be limited to Christmas. He wrote it to be sung throughout the year. And the Chalice Hymnal makes a very strong point about that. By the way, it’s based on Psalm 98—again, there’s a Biblical connection.
And the last one we’ll mention quickly is “O Little Town of Bethlehem,” written by Bishop Brooks, Phillips Brooks, a wonderful Boston preacher. But before he came to Boston—some books have not quite got this right. They say that this was written when he came to Boston. Actually, it wasn’t. It was written when he was in, I believe it was Philadelphia. He had gone to Bethlehem, and a couple of years later came back to his post, his pastorship, in Pennsylvania, and he wrote this text for the Sunday School students, “O, little town of Bethlehem, / How still we see thee lie ….”
We could say so much about carols at this time of the year. They’re joyous, they’re meditative, they’re reflective, and of course, they deal with this most wonderful message—wonderful, wonderful message of the birth of Christ Jesus.
spirituality.com host: Of course, there is also a Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. So, who knows, there might have been all kinds of connections there.
Did you have anything further you’d like to tell us, just in summary, about the things we’ve talked about?
Peter: Well, I think, first of all, the subject is an enormous one. I want to say that. I want to emphasize that any comments I may have made, particularly general comments, would always have some sort of qualification or caveat. And the number of hymns is enormous. One particular hymn writer, our great Charles Wesley, we don’t know how many hymns he wrote. We have different numbers in different times. But the most recent, I think, is somewhere close to 9,000 texts and poems. And a woman like Fanny Crosby, the wonderful blind evangelical hymn writer, she wrote thousands and thousands of hymns. There’s just two individuals, and there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of wonderful hymn writers.
So it’s an enormous subject. It is one that I think will continue to evolve. It will respond to the needs of the times. Yes, the wonderful hymns that we’ve sung in the past, they will stay with us. But the new hymns that are coming along—don’t let’s be afraid to look at new hymns, learn new texts, and new tunes, making sure, of course, that they’re always suitable for congregational singing. And particularly the untrained voices of congregational singers.
spirituality.com host: Oh, thank you. Thank you for reminding us of that point. It’s been great to have you with us, Peter. And for all of you who would like to hear this chat again, you have two options. One is the usual way of going to the site and clicking on the replay, and the other is as a podcast that you can listen to on your iPod or MP3 player.
To find out how to subscribe to a podcast, visit the Event Podcast page in the Events section of the website. And of course, we’ll be pursuing the material that we promised we’d look up for you about Peter’s answer to that question, and other information about the hymn societies. So be sure to check back with us if that’s something you’re interested in.
And thanks so much for joining us, for your prayers, and for asking these wonderful questions we’ve had today. You’re all wonderful thinkers, and we’re always glad to hear from you. And we want to take this moment to wish you all a very blessed and joyful Christmas with much song in your hearts. Many thanks.
Citations used in this chat
Science and Health
King James Bible
Visit the website for the Hymn Society in the US and Canada
Visit the website for the Hymn Society of Great Britain and Ireland
Read Peter's paper: "The music in The Mother Church shall not be operatic"