Divine Love is there for you 24/7
Keith Wommack
Are you loved? Do you love? Beginning with these two simple questions, Keith Wommack explores how it's possible to feel complete and satisfied, joyful and grateful, because of our constant connection to God, divine Love.
The more we understand what God is, says Keith, the more we are able to express love to others and feel loved ourselves—whether or not we're in a romantic relationship with another person.
Keith also shares his six simple ideas for filling an empty heart and discusses how love brings healing.
spirituality.com host: Hello, everyone! Today, we’ll be talking with Keith Wommack, a practitioner and teacher of Christian Science in Corpus Christi, Texas, in the United States. And the topic is a natural one for Valentine’s Day: “Divine Love is there for you 24/7.”
For ten years, Keith was a successful rock musician touring the United States and Europe. His group, the Wommack Brothers, shared the stage with Stevie Ray Vaughn, Elvis Costello, Journey, and others.
For the last 23 years, however, Keith has been helping people through his practice of Christian Science. He has also gone from being a single ex-musician to having a house filled with seven cats, three dogs, two teenage sons, and a beautiful wife.
That’s quite a background, Keith, and we’re really happy to have you with us. Do you have a few comments you’d like to make to get us started?
Keith Wommack: First of all, hello to everyone! And since it is Valentine’s Day, I thought about sending each of you chocolate and flowers. But then I came to my senses and realized that once my wife looked over our credit card bill, I’d be probably finding out if my laptop actually picked up wireless Internet service in our doghouse.
So instead of chocolate and flowers, you’re just going to have to settle for two questions—two questions that I have asked myself recently, as well. The first question is, Are you loved? And the second one is, Do you love?
Now regarding the first question, Are you loved? I’ve learned in my study of Christian Science that God is Love. And this is what the Bible tells us. It is one of the most important things to understand. I find that if I look for love, but leave God out of the picture, my heart feels empty. It’s hard to feel love when I refuse to tap into the source of all love, God.
However, my heart is satisfied when I feel deep down that God, divine Love, loves me. And I’m learning that God does love me, and that God does love you. God has created you, authored you, and loves how She has made you. God embraces you forever; never loses sight of you; and adores you and leads you.
As God’s love has become more real to me, this love has expressed itself as wonderful friends and a loving family. And I’m sure that each of you can begin to answer the question, Are you loved? with a big yes, as you learn or reconfirm that you have a Father-Mother God who loves you and will never leave you.
Now regarding the second question, Do you love? I’m learning that God has created us to express all that She is. Each of us individually expresses or reflects divine Love. We live to love because we’re aware of how divine Love is amazingly revealing ourselves.
The Bible states that we are the image and likeness of God. Now there have been many times I’ve felt alone and empty, when I’ve allowed myself to be fooled into thinking I live in an orbit of my own, totally separate from divine Love.
But the more I understand that I exist to love, that I am animated by divine Love, that I live in Love, the more caring, tender, and compassionate I’m able to be. The more I’m able to help and heal myself and others. I’m finding that each of us can answer yes to the second question, “Do you love?" because we effortlessly express or reflect Love. Loving is our reason for living. Both feeling loved and radiating love is our divine right.
spirituality.com host: That’s a wonderful way to start. And we have some wonderful questions. This one is from DeeDee in St. Simons Island, Georgia. And she’s asking, “Is it wrong to cherish a desire for companionship, even if we’re told in Christian Science to focus on our relationship with God?”
Keith: Oh, that’s a good question, DeeDee. I don’t think it’s wrong at all to desire companionship because, for me, desiring companionship means you are desiring a closer relationship to God. God is the source of love, the source of our companionship, the source of everything that we cherish about tender relations. So there’s not a division for me between what God is and Her/His active expression in and as your life, and your desire for companionship, cultivating that companionship, and maintaining it. To me, it’s all a divine thing. It’s not a divine God out there, and then some mortal or human here that’s desiring something. There’s no division, no separation between God and you, His creation.
spirituality.com host: Fabiola in Cambridge, Massachusetts, is asking, “What is the difference between Love with a capital L, and love with a small l? And should we be trying to express both kinds?”
Keith: Again, that kind of ties in with the first question—that sense that there could be a separation between the big capital L, God, and a small l, which is, maybe, human love. If we’re trying to humanly love and we leave God out of the picture, that love can meet no response, it can be lacking, and we can feel absolutely alone in a crowd.
But once we recognize that our love, our ability to love and be loved, is God animating Herself, God divinely expressing Herself, then there’s no separation, and I find that it’s more constant in our lives. The more we understand what God is, the more we will experience that little l, that peaceful sense of just tender relations.
There’s a paradox: to fill an empty heart, we must start with ever-present Love, God, for God is here 24/7. And I like in Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures written by Mary Baker Eddy, where she said, “It is our ignorance of God, the divine Principle, which produces apparent discord, and the right understanding of Him restores harmony.” If it is our ignorance of what divine Love is that makes us feel unloved, then a right understanding of Love will restore that little l.
spirituality.com host: That’s so helpful, and such an interesting idea. Can you elaborate just a little bit more on that idea—how would you get that understanding of Love?
Keith: Gaining that understanding of Love, or what God is, to me, is going to the source. And I’m learning in Christian Science that God is Love, that capital L, divine Love; and God is Life, supreme Spirit; and infinite Mind. God spiritually constitutes and governs everything about us. God, divine Love, blesses and heals, embraces and protects.
Divine Love is the basis for your tenderness, your irresistible compassion, your courtesy, your gentleness, your respect, and caring. Because God is Love, your very love, there is no place in your life for hatred or malice or neglect, fear, or hostility. I like in another place where Mary Baker Eddy wrote: “Divine Love is our hope, strength, and shield. We have nothing to fear when Love is at the helm of thought, but everything to enjoy on earth and in heaven” [Miscellaneous Writings 1883–1896, 113:24–27].
Since God is Love, or is Spirit, the wonders and glory of living are not material or matter-based, but spiritual. This profound and radical fact, I’ve found, in Christian Science means that you and I are spiritual. This is why love is so important. It’s a part of who we are. It’s a part of our spiritual individuality. We have a right and a responsibility to express God’s love.
spirituality.com host: This is from David in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. David says, “I’d love to learn how to be more loving in my daily life. Should I be trying to love on an individual basis as I meet each person? Or should I be trying to love the whole world? Thanks for your thoughts.”
Keith: A great question. A great town, Milwaukee. I think both. Again, I don’t divide between loving the individual and the whole world, because I think as we are loving, that love just expresses itself in the most unique way. God is that ever-present Love, so as we learn that we’re the image and likeness of that Love, we begin to love. And that love just shines forth, and we’re cherishing the beautiful individuality of everyone we meet, and we’re loving the world as well.
spirituality.com host: And Victoria, in Maryland, says that she’s heard a wonderful talk that you’ve given on joy, and she’s asking about joy. She says, “How does being joyful relate to being compassionate, considerate, that is, loving?”
Keith: Yes, joy is a part of our spiritual individuality, as well. If we think about what describes each one of us, and we say, “What describes David or DeeDee?”—it is Spirit that’s describing and revealing itself individually as each one of us. That compound idea—that compound, wonderful expression of God—is made up of love and peace and balance and order and joy. That’s what makes life worth living. If any one of those are absent, or we feel that something’s encroaching upon it, we have to go back to its source, which is God, divine Love, and say, “Okay, You show me how You’ve made me to be.”
spirituality.com host: Going back to your rock music career, Fred in New Hampshire is asking, “When touring with headlining rock acts, how did you deal with conflicting lifestyles? And were you ever in a position to tell others about God?”
Keith: I remember sometimes we would be playing in some shows—I don’t know if you’ve ever been to rock-and-roll shows, but a lot of times they will put on the stage things that they think will make you happy. And a lot of times there were tequila shots, there were lines of cocaine, marijuana, you name it, it was sitting on the stage.
One time a fellow came back after the show and asked, “Why didn’t you partake in anything I put up there?” And I said, “Well, I just don’t do those. I feel pretty secure within myself.” And he started crying. And I asked him why he was crying. He said, “Well, I’d love to stop drinking and using drugs.”
So I started to share what had made me satisfied. It was neat just to be able to share that God is divine Spirit. And that Spirit and Soul, the supreme Soul that is God, satisfies its every idea. And that we don’t need anything that would tear apart a relationship, as alcohol and drugs can. God maintains our wonderful relationship—never tears it apart. We’re just turning to God for that satisfaction, that spiritual being, where you feel full and complete.
It’s amazing how things just naturally express themselves. And the more we learn what God is, the more we learn of ourselves. We learn about reflection. The concept ofreflection as explained in Science and Health has been really helpful for me. When I caught a glimpse of how dynamic I am as God’s spiritual, loving reflection, the empty space that seems so impossible to fill at times, starts to fill and overflow with a love and a joy and a peace that can’t be taken away.
The first book of the Bible, Genesis, in its first chapter, set the stage for my learning about reflection. I read there that we are God’s image and likeness. And then while reading inScience and Health, I saw that just as our image or reflection in the mirror reveals who we are and what we do, we, as God’s image or reflection, reveal and express all that God is and does without measure.
I then saw that the second chapter of Genesis gives us an upside down and backward view of God and His spiritual reflection. I saw that this version of creation starts off with a mist that waters everything down. And our lives do seem to resemble this fuzzy, foggy, watered-down version until we discover who we are.
We are so much more than we may believe ourselves to be. In Science and Health, Mary Baker Eddy wrote, “As the reflection of yourself appears in the mirror, so you, being spiritual, are the reflection of God.” She continued: “God fashions all things, after His own likeness. Life is reflected in existence, Truth in truthfulness, God in goodness, which impart their own peace and permanence. Love, redolent with unselfishness, bathes all in beauty and light.” That’s our beauty and our light, our goodness, our existence, our honesty, and our integrity. That’s God in action. There’s no separation between God and His child, or His idea—that’s each one of us.
spirituality.com host: That’s really helpful. Anna in Springfield, Massachusetts, is asking, “Can you define some of the benefits God has on marriage for someone who has so few illusions about compatibility on the subject, and not much success at getting it right?”
Keith: You know, marriage, I have found, is where two people can grow together spiritually, and they’re helping each other grow together spiritually. That’s what marriage is all about. Mrs. Eddy talks about it in Science in Health, “Marriage should signify a union of hearts.” To me, that’s what it’s all about.
And so what marriage does, it’s a protection; it’s a safe harbor, where you can grow together spiritually, where you can help another, where you can cherish their spiritual individuality. So marriage is that wall, that barrier, that keeps out anything that would disturb. It satisfies and it fulfills.
You know, if you think about what wife and husband truly are—in thinking, if God is All, and God is the one Mind, the one Life, that we individually express—I have found it very helpful to really go to the top of the mountain and find out: What is a husband? Husbandmeans that which completes, protects, shelters, is faithful. And then examining thathusband, being synonymous with God, with divine Mind, therefore it includes all. Thereforehusband, you could think, is the one completeness, precluding all unlike itself, and so protecting and sheltering its own integrity. Husband is always present because God is always present, unchanging, and ever faithful.
I like in the book of Hosea, where it says, “I will betroth thee unto me for ever.” A husband provides, because that which is being all that is, is the one infinite provider. Isaiah states, “For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name.” The more that we cherish that our husband is Love, divine Love, expressing itself, the more dedicated that husband will be, the more faithful it will be, the more loving, tender. The communication will be better.
spirituality.com host: This is from Shirley in Wayne, New Jersey, who’s saying, “While I usually feel that God is with me, there are times, especially when I’m between relationships, when it’s hard for me to remember God and divine Love is there. How can I get back on track?”
Keith: It’s cherishing that God is divine Love, and that we’re divine Love’s expression. But I’ve also learned in Christian Science—it alerts me to what would undermine my ability to love and feel loved. Now the Bible refers to this interference as the work of the carnal mind or the devil or evil. And Jesus in his healing work, and in his crucifixion and resurrection, demonstrated that Christ stops evil’s interference and proves it to be nothing.
In Christian Science animal magnetism is used as an umbrella term for that supposed power that would undermine our ability to love and be loved and mesmerize or hypnotize us into believing we are something we’re not. I’m learning in Christian Science that when I’m feeling unworthy, a victim, inadequate, or frustrated; when I’m sad, in pain—this is not normal. These mesmerizing suggestions of animal magnetism seem real, a part of my identity, until I begin to understand who I really am.
Life is God. I’m the reflection of God. I’m where and how God is showing off Her perfection and love. When I can prayerfully protest against these errors, I can live without them and rejoice that no one can accept them or experience them. And that’s true of everyone, everywhere.
Christian Science shows us how to save ourselves from being mesmerized or fooled. That’s one of the powerful things about Christian Science. Mary Baker Eddy explains inScience and Health: “God is not the creator of an evil mind. Indeed, evil is not mind. We must learn that evil is the awful deception and unreality of existence. Evil is not supreme; good is not helpless;….” And I like where she writes in Science and Health on page 92: “We should blush to call that real which is only a mistake. The foundation of evil is laid on a belief in something besides God.”
It’s imperative that we all keep learning more about God, who we are spiritually, and why nothing can undermine Love. I like in Second Corinthians where it says, “(…the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.”
spirituality.com host: Well, that’s really super. And we have a lot of people who are asking questions. It’s wonderful to have you all being part of this. Elizabeth in Washington, DC, says, “What about people who are older, let’s say, their 60s? I really want to demonstrate marriage, but it seems so overwhelming at my age. Could you please address this issue?”
Keith: Is the question that they’re wanting to be married, or want just to have their marriage stay fresh?
spirituality.com host: Well, she says, “Rules for courtship have all changed. Lots of confusion and anxiety abound. So it’s easier to retreat instead of making the effort to overcome obstacles.”
Keith: Well, again, there, I think it’s defeating that imagination, that sense that God’s idea can ever retreat. You know, that would be like saying, “Well, God, divine Love, is retreating. The sun is not shining today, it retreated against the darkness.” I think our job as active expressions of divine Love is to know that Love is ever fresh and inspired. Love doesn’t go downhill. It doesn’t fizzle out altogether. It stays constant, because divine Love is also the divine Principle of being. The principle of mathematics doesn’t slow down, and all of a sudden, it’s hard to do our checkbook. Or the principle of music—“Well, all the musicians are going to have to just slow down a little bit, because the principle of music is slowing down.”
God is that active, loving, Principle; and each of us, no matter how old we seem to be, can express the vibrancy, the dynamics, of being. We’re the effortless and dynamic unfoldment of Love. We’re where and how Love, the supreme Soul, is expressing itself. So the tenderness, everything that we cherish life to be, the wonders of a neat relationship—that can’t peter out or it can’t be stopped.
spirituality.com host: This is a question from Susie, who’s asking for clarification. She’s in Chicago, and she says, “Why do you keep referring to God in feminine terms, calling God She? Is Christian Science a woman-centered religion?”
Keith: I like to use She every once in a while, because a lot of the time I use He, and I just like to get both the fatherhood and the motherhood of God in my thought. And Love seems to be more of a feminine style, so sometimes I use that more when I’m talking about Love. I will actually use He when I’m talking about just the word God sometimes. It just depends on how I’m led to express myself. But actually Christian Science uses both the He and the She, and all the synonyms for God—Life, Truth, Love, Soul, Spirit, Principle, Mind. It’s not limited in any way.
spirituality.com host: Thanks. And this is from Sunshine, who’s writing from Hawaii. She says, “The Bible states the Jesus used a strong rebuke for error. How does that relate to love?”
Keith: Well, you know, love is a constant strong rebuke to hate; just as light is a strong rebuke to darkness. The more that we recognize and allow ourselves to be the expression of Love, our very presence, our actions, our tone of voice, is a strong rebuke to hate or hostility or envy or anything unloving or not compassionate.
spirituality.com host: This is from JJ in Chicago: “How do you feel God’s love when there is so much fear? I can’t seem to get rid of the fear, to feel His love. All I want is to feel His love and peace.”
Keith: I like how the Bible talks about that: “God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.” And, “Perfect love casteth out fear.”
Also, in Science and Health, it’s an interesting study, if you ever get a chance, to look at where Mary Baker Eddy uses the words reverse, reversal, opposite, and counterfeit. It’s very interesting. She makes one statement, “If you wish to know the spiritual fact, you can discover it by reversing the material fable, be the fable pro or con,—be it in accord with your preconceptions or utterly contrary to them.”
What I have found is that the disturbing qualities that we see in our experience are nothing but the upside down and backward of what is divinely right and real and God-created right now. If we find that life is just filled with fear and emptiness, what is the exact opposite of that? Because you can’t have a counterfeit $20 bill without there first being an original. Every counterfeit or reverse or opposite of God’s good is just indicating or hinting the presence of the spiritual fact.
And once we can find the spiritual fact, we find healing. Just as Jesus said, “Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” He didn’t say, “Let’s try to mumble over the error and grumble, ‘Why the pain?’ and figure out how long it’s been there.” Our job is to find what it’s hinting, what it’s symbolizing. And that is Love’s ever-presence, the fearless consciousness of Christlike being that’s ours forever.
You know, I’ve used six simple things that can help fill an empty heart. And maybe right here, I could share those, if you’d like.
spirituality.com host: Sure.
Keith: These are six simple things that can help fill an empty heart. One, stop being critical. Criticism closes our eyes to the good that has always been present. Critical states of thought lead to critical mistakes, as well causing critical states of the body. So let’s stop being critical.
Number two, stop keeping score. It’s not how someone else is acting, but how much of God’s love you are expressing that will satisfy you. That’s two, stop keeping score.
Number three, stop trying to prove you are right. Instead of telling others you are right and they are wrong, live what is right and you will begin to sparkle. Let’s stop trying to prove you’re right.
Number four, be honest. Honesty allows you to be at peace, even in the middle of turmoil. It keeps you strong, and it keeps a relationship strong. I like what Mrs. Eddy says inScience and Health: “Honesty is spiritual power. Dishonesty is human weakness, which forfeits divine help.” That’s number four—be honest.
Number five, start forgiving. Forgiveness means starting over with love. Forgiveness is learning to see others as God made them. That’s important. Number five, start forgiving.
Number six, be grateful. Pain and gratitude are incompatible. Be grateful for everything good in your relationships and your home and in your life. Gratitude completes the circuit in every healing.
That’s six things. One, stop being critical. Two, stop keeping score. Three, stop trying to prove you’re right. Four, be honest. Five, start forgiving. Six, be grateful.
spirituality.com host: Oh, that’s really helpful. Thank you so much for that. And Barbara in Poughkeepsie, New York, is asking a question that’s a little bit related to it. She says, “We are taught to love ourselves. I find this difficult sometimes, unless it means to love our real spiritual self. But what about the love for a material self?”
I was just thinking about your six ideas there. You could almost apply that to ourselves, couldn’t we?
Keith: Oh, absolutely. And what’s interesting—while I was looking at reverse, reversal, and opposite statements in Science and Health, I found this one: “What, then, is the material personality which suffers, sins, and dies? It is not man, the image and likeness of God, but man’s counterfeit, the inverted likeness, the unlikeness called sin, sickness, and death.”
And then the characteristic traits that are bad—what we call personality traits that are kind of harmful—will begin to fall away because we’re not holding on to them. They’re not a part of God’s being, therefore, they cannot be a part of ours. We can refuse to live our life with them any longer.
spirituality.com host: Thank you. And Karen from Portland, Oregon, is maybe taking this the next step by asking, “What is it about love that heals?”
Keith: Great question. Love heals because it’s so powerful. It’s so big, it’s ever present. It has no hint of confusion, fear, or hate. It just wipes those out. Ignorance, fear, and sin—those are the foundations of illness. And what Love does—it’s the divine eraser that removes each one of those.
I remember many years ago—before 1982, I was performing in the band, but for several months, probably somewhere in the 70s, while the band was working on new songs and adding new members—I worked as a telephone operator for a few months. And one of the first days with the phone company, a fellow asked if I’d started getting headaches yet, and I thought this was kind of funny.
So what I’m discovering is that the material personality is the exact opposite of our spiritual individuality. And involved in that spiritual individuality is everything that we cherish that’s good, divine. So instead of loving our material personality, we should cherish our spiritual individuality.
But not too long after, I began to get headaches every day on the job, and it wasn’t fun anymore. What had changed was my attitude toward the people calling in for assistance. At first, serving each caller had been a joy. But that quickly changed, and I began to view each caller as an absolute jerk, impatient, unloving, and unintelligent. And I could tell my thoughts of others needed an overhaul.
So searching for some direction, I picked up the Bible. And I’d learned that a random peek at different verses could make me think differently, could turn my thought Spiritward. And I was learning that when thought moves, that’s when healing takes place.
I opened the Bible, and I found a statement in the book of Isaiah that said, “I will make a man more precious than fine gold.” Now the word precious made me think of how precious we are as God’s children, God’s spiritual expression. But a closer look at the entire verse showed that this sentence actually referred to making man scarcer than fine gold because of his propensity for wickedness. To me, this meant that the notion that anyone could be so unlike Love, or Spirit, God, should be scarcer in my thought. I reasoned that if divine Spirit would render the materialistic thought of us scarcer than fine gold, shouldn’t I start seeing everyone as spiritual and precious?
As an operator, I touched a button that brought each call to my position. And each time I was about to touch the button, I would acknowledge that the person I was about to meet was precious to Spirit, was spiritual. I began to love them.
The headaches quickly stopped. And I was awarded in the next few months for being the fastest, most accurate operator. I wasn’t stuck, didn’t have to endure pain or a hopeless, downhill situation at the phone company.
And this healing came about, I believe, because of the change in how I thought about others. I began to see myself and others not as something separate from Love, but the very presence, the evidence of Love, and joy, purpose, fulfillment, tenderness, grace. These qualities I was learning describe or constitute us, because we are Love’s dynamic expression.
spirituality.com host: That’s really, really helpful. I expect the people who called during that time were grateful, too. The next question again ties in with what you’ve just been talking about. It’s Gloria from Ankara, Turkey, and she’s saying, “If divine Love is here for us 24/7, when and how does hatred and fear come about?”
Keith: Good question. You know, hatred and fear come about when we are accepting that love is absent. Darkness is the absence of light. We pour in light and the darkness flees. So the more that we acknowledge and cherish that God is that ever-present 24/7 Love, that we express that Love dynamically and effortlessly 24/7, then we’re going to see an abatement of fear and hate.
This reminds me of when I was performing in the band, and one night after a performance, I walked out the backstage door of an auditorium, headed to a parking area. And I found myself right in the middle of a race riot. The back door of the auditorium slammed shut. And I was immediately surrounded by a group of young men, and their anger just turned on me. Everything happened fast, but what came to my thought was the idea, “Love has no opposite sides.” It just came whooshing into my thought. And surprisingly, I felt God’s peace.
I was then poked in the back, and when I turned around, a large man hit me in the face with his fist as hard as he could, but it only felt as if I had been tapped with a balloon. My head didn’t move at all. The man who hit me looked me in the eye, looked at the others, and then he walked away, and every one of them followed after him. If I had tried to fight back, the situation would have turned out quite differently. I’d probably be a little grease spot on the asphalt. But my nonreaction was an act of love. In Christian Science, I’d learned that I could trust God. And by trusting God and listening to the angel message, “Love has no opposite sides,” the anger and danger just disappeared. All that remained was love.
spirituality.com host: That is a very wonderful thought. Clare, who’s writing from Maine, is asking, “Do you think that God does not always purpose lifelong companionship, like marriage, for everyone?”
Keith: I think God’s completeness will always express itself as how completeness will satisfy each individual, whether it’s walking hand in hand, or single blessedness—however you’re going to be most successful, most feeling loved, most productive in your life. That will just naturally express itself. If there’s a constant yearning for someone to be there, a deep-down agony, God does not leave that there. It is our job to recognize, number one, that it's the absence of love, that animalistic, mesmerizing, state that’s trying to make us think that we are just little mere mortals, separate from Love.
And nothing can be further from the truth. We are immortal ideas of Love. We are where Love is flowering and blossoming. We are where Love is singing its song. We’re the song of Soul. We are not separate, left alone, just working our salvation out all by our lonesome. We express God’s completeness every moment. Therefore, as we turn and find out more what Love is, more that we are the full and complete and satisfied reflection of God, whatever blesses each individual will express itself.
spirituality.com host: Thank you. This is from Jean, who’s writing from New York. She says, “Unlike a previous person who wrote in, I find it easier to focus on God when I am between relationships. How can I be in a happy relationship and not be consumed by it?”
Keith: Ah, there’s a good question. I experienced the same thing for quite a while, as well. I would get in a relationship, then all of a sudden, I’d end the relationship because I just wanted to be close to God. And I probably destroyed quite a few wonderful relationships and made a few people upset at me.
But as I began to mature spiritually—and hopefully I’m continuing to do that—I began to learn how to translate everything that was going on in a relationship. Again, there’s no division between God unfolding, and doing the laundry, taking out the trash, and talking to my wife. God is that active Love that’s ever expressing itself.
So if I’m doing the dishes, or doing the laundry, that is Soul’s beauty and perfection and goodness expressing itself in a way that I and my kids and my family can understand and appreciate, and I do it with a sense of joy and love. And if I do it with joy and love, then it’s not something that’s eating at me, saying, “Oh, you’re having to do this for them. Why can’t they do it for themselves?” Or, “I should be doing something more important.” That’s just animal magnetism, or evil, at work trying to tear down the marriage or tear down communication or tear down what is beautifully and naturally a divine thing.
So the more I recognize that everything we do—whether it’s riding a bicycle—that’s the activity of divine Mind, effortlessly expressing itself; whether we’re paying bills because we’re grateful for what’s been provided for us. Everything is Love in action.
spirituality.com host: Thank you. Quint in Fort Myers is asking, “Do you have a favorite quotation from Science and Health or the Bible that sums up what we should know about loving other people?”
Keith: A favorite. Well, there are so many. But there’s that wonderful statement of Mary Baker Eddy in Miscellaneous Writings 1883–1896 that says, “We should measure our love for God by our love for man …” (p. 12). I really like that.
In Science and Health, I like where it states, “All of God’s creatures, moving in the harmony of Science, are harmless, useful, indestructible.” I like that. In a marriage, in a relationship, in a family that’s filled with seven cats, three dogs, two kids, and one wife, there’s nothing harmful or unuseful, and there’s nothing destructible. It is all Love expressing itself.
spirituality.com host: That’s great. Carol from Morongo Valley in California, is writing and saying, “Each day, I try to start out with the thought and prayer that divine Love, God, will order my steps, and that I will reflect that perfect Love. But sometimes, many times, I find I am judging or being critical of my family and friends. How can I get past this distracting thought and action?”
Keith: I do think it’s wonderful to absolutely cherish that God is going to order your steps each moment. But I’d also counsel the fact that getting even a higher sense that there’s not a question about it. There’s no separation, there’s not a division between God and His child, or God, the divine cause, and the effect. It’s an automatic process of Love expressing itself as your ordered moment. There is no unholy moment.
If you were given a pair of shoes, and you loved those shoes, but the person who gave you the gift really didn’t know your shoe size, and they gave you shoes two sizes too small—and you loved this pair of shoes and you’d been looking for them a long time and just wanted to wear them, and so you decided to wear them. And so you went out and you wore these shoes two sizes too small—guess what’s going to happen? You’re going to feel a little pain, a little uncomfortableness.
And that’s what I’ve been learning. Big feet don’t belong in small shoes. In my spiritual journey, as well, when we experience pain and trouble, usually it’s because we’re trying to fit something big into something small. We are spiritual beings, yet we continually try to live materialistically, and this brings trouble. Now we may be good people, but we’re learning new lessons. We’re being forced to discover our spiritual nature that is so much more, so much bigger than we may have believed ourselves to be.
spirituality.com host: Antoinette in Bethesda, Maryland, is saying, “Did you ever have days when you were discouraged—when it just seemed impossible? What did you do?”
Keith: I think we all do. What I’m learning is that frustration and despair mean I’m being more self-centered than divine- or Spirit-centered. I think we all feel this way more often than not. However, this should alert us that it’s time to go higher, go deeper. It’s time to learn more about our divine rights, that we express supreme Love’s joy and goodness, and spiritual thinking enables us to awaken to this fact.
spirituality.com host: Well, Cha-Cha in Rochester, New York, is sending us a statement that seems to be tying in with some of the things we’ve been saying. She writes, “When we companion with God 24/7, we find that the companions we long for will come into our life, not always in the way we’re outlining, but certainly in wonderful ways.”
Keith: I like that.
spirituality.com host: Julia in Durham—I’m not sure which Durham it is—is writing, “Hi, Keith. Can you give an example from you own life of how Love fills an empty heart?”
Keith: When I quit the band—this was 1982—I went into the Christian Science practice. I was not married, didn’t have a girl friend. There I was alone 24/7, and just praying away and working with patients as the practice grew and more people called for prayerful help. And it was a lot of fun. But I did not have a social calendar. And when you’re in the practice, your standards kind of go up of the people that you want to hang around with—it just kind of happens that way. To the human sense, it kind of limited the playing field, so to speak. And so years went by. But I found my happiness most of the time in recognizing that I expressed God’s, divine Love’s, completeness and satisfaction.
But I still had one little half-eye out there looking. And I looked, and I looked, but nothing ever popped or snapped naturally. And so that’s when, after years and years, I stopped looking. I said, Okay, God, you’re going to have to slam it in my face, because I’m not going to look at all.
I found a wonderful painting, and usually I don’t like paintings of Jesus, but I found a wonderful painting of Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. Jesus was kind of in the darkness, and kneeling on dark rock. But there was this beautiful angel with its feathers covering him, almost. And it was such a comforting picture to me, because it expressed what I was feeling at that time, praying for the world, but comforted by angels alone.
I was living at the time in Austin, Texas, and I commissioned this fellow to paint this painting for me, because he reproduced the masters. And so I paid him $2,000 to paint this painting. And I would call him each week and ask him how it was going. And he put me off and put me off. Finally, he confided to me, “I cannot reproduce this. For some reason, I can’t reproduce it.”
Well, that very day, I got a call from a woman in Austin who I’d never met before, and she wanted me to come talk to her at her home about prayer and Christian Science.
And so I went, and the woman’s daughter opened the door. That is now my wife. And she was the answer to prayer. She is my angel.
spirituality.com host: That was an interesting way that worked out, wasn’t it?
Keith: Yes. It was interesting, because I talked to him later, and he said, “I tried to paint and the brush would not touch the canvas.” I didn’t need the symbol if I had the real thing.
spirituality.com host: Well, we’ve had a question from someone named Meredith, who is asking, “What was the third thing on your list?” And I wonder if you wanted to run through that again, since maybe there are some others who are wondering, too. Would you mind?
Keith: Oh, I don’t mind at all. There are six simple things, that can help fill an empty heart. Number one, stop being critical. Criticism closes our eyes to the good that has always been present. Critical states of thought lead to critical mistakes, as well as cause critical states of the body.
Number two, stop keeping score. It’s not how someone else is acting, but how much of God’s love you are expressing that will satisfy you.
Number three, stop trying to prove you are right. Instead of telling others you are right and they are wrong, live what is right, and your life will begin to sparkle.
Number four, be honest. Honesty always will bring a peace. Even in the middle of turmoil, it keeps you strong.
Number five, start forgiving. Forgiveness means starting over with love. Forgiveness is learning to see others as God made them.
And six, be grateful. Pain and gratitude are incompatible. Be grateful for everything good in your life. Gratitude completes the circuit in every healing.
Now there are four more things that can help make life livable and bring love into your heart. Would you like to hear those?
spirituality.com host: Oh, sure.
Keith: I call these the four r’s. Number one, reverse it. Mentally reverse everything that is wrong in your life. Every trouble is the counterfeit or opposite of a real tangible, spiritual fact. And we talked about that earlier when Mrs. Eddy uses the word reverse, reversal,counterfeit. So reverse it.
spirituality.com host: And so if you’re feeling unloved, you should pray that you are loved, and to recognize that you are loved. That kind of thing?
Keith: Absolutely. And at first, it may seem like those are just words, but those are the right words, because that’s the divine Word that’s coming to you, and it has power. And when we recognize that our prayer, our spiritual reasoning, is a law of annihilation to anything that tries to say that it’s not effective, it just can’t happen. It’s a law of annihilation to any error whatsoever. So number one, reverse it.
Number two, recognize it. Now when part of your life is good, recognize that the goodness is permanent, not fleeting and fickle. Goodness lasts because it is divine, and comes directly to you from the supreme Spirit, God. Let’s recognize it.
Number three, refuse to let go. Refuse to let go of good, no matter what the curve balls are that are thrown your way. Hold on to good, it’s your divine right. Let’s refuse to let go.
Number four, rejoice. Rejoice that you deserve all the goodness that Spirit has to offer. Rejoice.
So that’s the four r’s: Reverse it, recognize it, refuse to let go, and rejoice.
spirituality.com host: Thank you so much for that. And we’ll move on now to Tanner, who’s writing from Austin, Texas. He says, “I have read that when we learn to love more fully, we lose sight of mortal personality. Do you find this to be true? If so, can you explain how it has been demonstrated in your life?”
Keith: The more we learn to love truly, that is our spiritual individuality shining forth. And the material personality with all its funny silliness just kind of falls away. I remember when I married Joanne, she already had two small boys. And after we had just started dating, Jarrod, our eldest son, every time we would go out to eat would need to go to the bathroom as soon as the food arrived. Instead of eating, I would take Jarrod to the men’s room where the aroma wasn’t quite as nice, and it just began to irritate me to no end.
And one evening, we were eating at a cafeteria, and as soon as we sat down with the food, Jarrod needed to go. And I grumbled all the way to the bathroom. And since Jarrod was too short to reach the urinal, he stood on my shoes while going to the bathroom. And it was then while standing on my shoes that he looked up and for the first time ever told me, “Keefer, I love you.” That pure love has a way of erasing selfishness. I get those nudges all the time.
spirituality.com host: That is a really wonderful experience. We have a question about Valentine’s Day from John in Hartford, who says, “I don’t like Valentine’s Day, because it makes me think about the fact that I’m not with anybody. I know that’s not a very spiritual way of thinking, but sometimes I feel like things won’t change. What can I do about this?”
Keith: There’s a wonderful—well, maybe the first time I read it I didn’t think it was wonderful—statement in Science and Health that says: “Would existence without personal friends be to you a blank? Then the time will come when you will be solitary, left without sympathy; but this seeming vacuum is already filled with divine Love. When this hour of development comes, even if you cling to a sense of personal joys, spiritual Love will force you to accept what best promotes your growth. Friends will betray and enemies will slander, until the lesson is sufficient to exalt you; for ‘man’s extremity is God’s opportunity.’ ” I’ve found that to be true. Remember the hot potato or the shoes two sizes too small, it forces us to move out of that sense of personal love, and it opens up to that spiritual Love that is always there 24/7. So keep your thought open to the divine surprise—Love’s goodness and how Love will just naturally unfold itself.
spirituality.com host: I love the thought of the “divine surprise.”
Keith: That’s what Joanne was for me, a divine surprise.
spirituality.com host: Terry in Houston, Texas, says, “You’re obviously an animal lover. Do you think we can learn anything about loving people from the way we love animals?”
Keith: I think about that all the time. Whenever I’m walking dogs around the neighborhood—and when I go for a walk in my neighborhood, I have three dogs, but I also have all these cats following along behind. It looks like the Pied Piper sometimes. And people will come up and talk to you that normally would never say hello. So it’s learning that these wonderful, beautiful expressions of Love, divine Soul—they bring out the loveliness in everyone, just like when a lot of people see a small baby. It just brings out the love. And all the inhibitions and personality just fades away, and you see their spiritual, Christlike being shining forth. So it’s really a neat thing.
spirituality.com host: This goes back to your comments about reversing. And it’s from JJ in Chicago. He says, “How do you reverse ill health? What should I be thinking?”
Keith: It’s recognizing that health comes from divine Spirit. Spirit is the basis of all health, harmony, and wholeness. So any ill health is just indicating that harmony and wholeness is right there. In my study in Science and Health, I’m learning that prayer reaches and heals the body because the essential nature of reality is thought.
The mental nature of reality is now being confirmed by physical scientists and quantum physics. But Mary Baker Eddy years ago recognized this phenomenon and wrote inScience and Health: “Disease is an image of thought externalized. The mental state is called a material state. Whatever is cherished in mortal mind as the physical condition is imaged forth on the body.” So health is a robust mental state. When we recognize that God, divine Mind, is the only thinker and knower and be-er, and we are expression of that, then we have found a robust mental state.
spirituality.com host: We’re running out of time, but the questions that I have now we’ll answer. There are so many questions, that we want to respond. But these will be the last few. This one is from Norm, who hasn’t told us where he’s from, but he says, “I find the more I study, work, and pray, that the ones I love are falling further away from the path I’m taking. Sometimes they try to get in the way of my studying. What can I do?”
Keith: Keep studying. Actually, you know, sometimes as we spiritualize our thought, those who want to go along that journey will keep up, and those who are detrimental, in a sense, to our spiritual journey will just fall away. I’ve found that in my own experience. Traveling in the band, as I spiritualized my thought, certain musicians, people in my relationships, they would fall away.
That doesn’t mean you don’t cherish their spiritual individuality, but you just don’t need any distractions as you go along. The fullness of Love will not only bring people that will bless you and you bless them, but it will also remove things out of your experience that are not healthy and right for you at that moment.
spirituality.com host: That’s really, really helpful. There are two questions that are sort of similar. One person, Robert from Plainsville, is asking about loving politicians. But then Don, in New Hampshire, is also asking, “How do you approach being wholehearted in your love for people who have different beliefs in important areas, such as religion, politics, and even in terms of sports teams to cheer for?”
Keith: In politics, specifically, I like to cherish how Love, or divine Mind, is the one governor. This Mind governs itself—and governing itself, it governs the universe, as Mary Baker Eddy puts it. And in that government, it includes everything that we call local politics, national politics, and the world scene, as well.
So if we say that man is governing us, then man will ruin our governments. But if we recognize that immortal Mind, or Love, is governing, and man reflects that government, then we are self-governed rightly, and that government will express itself naturally as a betterment of laws, a loving police force—whatever is needed to bring harmony and order to the social scene.
In sports and the rest, it’s really learning that Love radiates. As the Olympics are going on, cherishing each performance. That’s Soul’s beauty, the tone, texture, and flavor of Soul expressing itself. And we can be thrilled by every performance. Usually, we get carried away, and we want our nation, whatever that be, to bring home the gold. But it’s cherishing that everyone is a star and sparkle of Soul; that everyone is pure gold, precious to Love.
spirituality.com host: That’s a wonderful thought. And this one from Kristin is something I think many people are wondering about in their own way. It’s from Sacramento, California, and she’s saying, “Keith, how does someone who is not physically beautiful, in fact, has an ugly facial condition, find help in finding love?”
Keith: Remember in that statement of Mrs. Eddy where it talked about, “… be the fable pro or con …”? We can just rejoice that we are not mortals who are beautiful or not so beautiful. We are immortal ideas, immortal ideas of grand Love expressing itself. And the more we look away from the material personality and cherish our spiritual individuality, wow, the divine surprise will express itself. I mean, how many times have you gone to a place when all of sudden here comes walking into a room not the most beautiful, not the greatest figure to the human sense of things, but man, they radiate. And everybody sees that beautiful smile, and you think, “Man, how beautiful.” That’s Love expressing itself.
spirituality.com host: Nan in Fayetteville says, “Keith, you describe treatment as fun. Would you expand on that?”
Keith: Well, if it’s not fun, it’s really not divine. And so we want it to be fun. I know when you’re dealing with certain aches and pains, and people’s lives that are disturbed, it can seem to be not so fun. But remember, if we recognize that the converse of error—which means sin, disease, and death—the converse is always true, we can zero in on the fact that right where we seem to be mortals who are prayerfully treating, right there is divine Mind treating itself to a wonderful view of Mind and expressing itself individually as our prayers. Therefore, our prayer is where divine Love is animated, and dynamically saying, “Here I am. How wonderful I am.” That’s fun.
spirituality.com host: And this last is the last question, and it’s from Janna in Kansas City. She says, “How can we really feel God’s presence, His love for us? How is this done? What does it feel like?”
Keith: Prayer can be many, many things. To me, when I pray, I stop and listen. I try to shut out clamor and noise and let the sustaining infinite describe what should be and divinely is. Then I begin to feel, to some degree, the harmony, order, sweetness, grace, dignity, and well-being that underlie existence. Then I expect harmony and well-being to manifest themselves in betterment and healing. I expect good to prevail, joy to be present. These are not just wonderful qualities I’m hoping for; they’re divine qualities that we all naturally should be feeling and living. If they’re not in our lives right now, we’re accepting so much less out of life than we should. We do have a divine right to mentally protest against pain and hurt. We don’t have to learn to live with them. There’s a supreme, loving, powerful presence, force, and Being that governs us. It’s recognizing that Soul, divine Soul, God, feels. And we’re where and how Soul is feeling and being the goodness and perfection of being right now.
spirituality.com host: Thank you, Keith. That was just beautiful. And I wonder if you have any further comments you’d like to make as we’re winding down here?
Keith: Well, remember that you can answer the questions, Are you loved, and, Do you love? as you learn that God loves you 24/7. God embraces you forever, never loses sight of you, adores you, and leads you. And God’s love will always express itself in meeting your heart’s need. As you turn to God, you will feel love more and more.
As well, each of us reflects God. You exist to love. You are animated by divine Love. You live in Love. You effortlessly express Love. Both feeling loved and radiating love is your divine right.
spirituality.com host: Thank you. That is a wonderful thought. And we’re all going to take that away with us today.
Thank you so much for all of you who joined us, whether you sent a question in or not. And for the prayers that you all are giving. And especially for your wonderful questions. We really appreciate it.
Citations used in this chat
Science and Health
- 390:7-9
- 516:2-4, 9-13
- 64:17 (only)
- 207:8-11 (to 2nd ;)
- 92:25-27
- 129:7
- 453:16-17
- 285:7-11
- 514:28-30
- 266:6-15
- 411:23
King James Bible