A way out of addiction to pornography and cybersex

Mark Swinney, C.S.B., and Ginny Luedeman, C.S.B.

Healing, not condemnation, is at the heart of this chat. Mark Swinney points out that bringing our thought in line with the reality of God’s changeless goodness gives us freedom from materialism and mortality and brings a lasting feeling of closeness to God. One of Ginny’s themes is the importance of structuring our lives on solid building blocks like the fact that God is Love, that God saw everything He had made as very good, expressing the male and female qualities. She says that addiction would suggest that you are not complete, but when you listen to God’s higher call to be the way He made you to be—complete, made in the image of Love—you can find freedom.

Questions from site visitors explored different aspects of how to give up these addictions, how to resist the pressure to resume this behavior, ways to help young people who are attracted to pornography, situations in a marriage where one partner may rely on pornography for satisfaction, couples who use sexual fantasies based on pornography, how to overcome addiction to strip-tease clubs, and whether or not a little porn is really a bad thing.

The transcribed text has been edited for clarity.

Rosalie Dunbar: Hello, everyone. Welcome to another spirituality.com live question and answer audio event. My name is Rosalie Dunbar, and I’ll be your host for the next hour. Today we’ll be talking about “A way out of addiction to pornography and cybersex.” This subject was recommended by a regular site visitor, and after we’d done some serious research and prayer, we felt that we wanted to offer some healing answers for anyone who might be struggling with this problem. Our two guests, Ginny Luedeman, from Salem, Oregon; and Mark Swinney, are both Christian Science healers and also teachers of Christian Science. Mark teaches in Albuquerque, New Mexico. They’re going to be answering your questions on this subject, but as full-time practitioners of Christian Science, they have broad experience in healing all kinds of difficulties, and that’s true for other Christian Science practitioners around the world. Mark, do you have some thoughts to get us started?

Mark Swinney: Well, I always love participating in these spirituality.com chats. I just love it. Even better over the years has been just to be listening to all of the guests. They’re incredibly inspiring ideas. For me, a leading point that you’ve been making program after program, is simply that God just fills all space, and is completely good. It’s bringing our thoughts in line with the reality of God’s changeless goodness that reveals a freedom from materialism and mortality. Doing so, not only is inspiring, it heals. And you know I did some research. Since starting this program back in 2005, you have confronted and addressed with prayer so many issues—things like illness and the economy. Last week was women’s rights—or two weeks ago—world hunger, epidemics, depression, so-called “natural disasters,” racism, mental illness, safety, stress, and peace on earth, just to name a few. And today, yes, we’re teaming up together to confront one more facet that would draw people away from a conscious love of God and spirituality—and that’s the materialistic attraction of cybersex and internet pornography. It’s my hope today that we can explore some ideas, and also provide some building blocks, to help people regain that lasting feeling of closeness to God, and of the care and love that God has for everyone. Ginny?

Ginny Luedeman: Yeah, I loved what you said, Mark. The idea of freedom, that’s really, to me, what this whole thing is about, that we’re going to be looking at, is greater freedom, deeper love. And the idea of building blocks, it reminded me of my little granddaughter and I play building blocks together—she’s two-and-a-half. And it’s so important when she wants to stack these things way up high, that the first block be really solid, so I try to find a table or someplace where there’s no rubble in the carpet. And the first block will allow her, then, to make more blocks on top, and she’s thrilled the higher and the bigger it gets. And I was thinking about the building blocks that have worked for me, and for many people over centuries in their lives, that allow us to build good lives--lives that last, that are beautiful. And a few of them I’ve really cherished are from the Bible, especially the idea you said, Mark, that “God is love,” found in John. And also, when it comes to relationships and things that have to do with the heart, in Genesis 1, one of the passages that has really been a building block for me when it comes to choices I make, it says that: “God saw every thing that he had made, and, . . . it was very good.” And also, “God created man in his own image,” and then “male and female created he them” (verse 27). And, to me, this kind of brightened my thought when I began to think that we’re all complete, expressing male and female qualities. That’s been a whole world of discovery. So these foundation blocks, these mental places, that I find are solid places to begin making choices from, have really proven, in my experience as well as many others’, to be good places to start.

Mark: I like that.

Rosalie: Well, thanks very much for both of you. Now there’s a question for you from Julie in Bellevue, Washington, Ginny. And she’s asking: “Could you share some of the spiritual ideas that helped heal you of drug addiction, and which could also relate to different forms of sex addiction?”

Ginny: Yeah. For me, the idea of addiction is, it’s a call that says you’re not complete, there’s something outside that’s going to make you complete. And it’s a call that keeps coming. It may come in the form of, almost an electrical impulse, or just a suggestion that comes over and over. And when I began to listen to a higher thought of myself as complete, and that God already made me complete, it turned me from being called to the things on the outside, to a higher calling of beginning to look at: What is this completeness all about? And thinking of myself more in line with that foundation that I’m made as the image of Love, as the qualities of God expressed, rather than a hunk of stuff that needs to somehow go about gathering experiences, or drugs, or other things to make me feel good. That was the beginning of my freedom from any habitual behavior.

Rosalie: I’d just like to ask about dissatisfaction. Did you feel that some of our visitors, for example, might be struggling with just a lingering sense of dissatisfaction that kind of drives them to want stimulation outside of themselves?

Ginny: You want to answer that, Mark?

Mark: Well, I think that people may try to substitute physicality, materiality, for something they think—like Ginny said—is missing inside. And they may just be searching for their mother or father, maybe it’s the love of their mother and father, and they try to substitute maybe pornography or cybersex for that. And oh, my heart goes out to them because they’re just searching so hard, and obviously just not being satisfied.

Rosalie: Right. Now Sally from Seattle, Washington, says: “I live in a building that has a public computer room. Sometimes people use the computer for cybersex. Can you offer some thoughts about how to pray about this situation, so that all the residents can enjoy the computer without finding things on the screen that are inappropriate?”

Mark: I think that you have the right to pray about anything in your world—anything in your world, you can include it in consciousness. And that just doesn’t mean the different continents on the planet, it can mean your neighborhood, or your building in this case. And so, how do you do that? How would you be able to pray, including everyone in the building? What is prayer, when it comes to doing that?

Ginny: I like to, along with what you’re saying, translate things into thoughts. If you’ve got a picture on a screen that’s shocking, it’s because it’s a counterfeit. It’s a counterfeit of something you cherish. If you really cherish the male and female qualities of God’s creating, then this offensive picture would say, “I’m real, I’m what’s going on here.” And because you know better, your prayer starts from that peaceful place of not being impressed, first of all. Matter-stuff, whatever form it might take, is just not what we’re all about. We’re so much better than just a hunk of stuff. So I think not being impressed is one of the first things folks have to kind of address in their own thought.

Mark: And you know, Ginny, you mentioned something you just love in Genesis, and that is that we are made in God’s image. And that is a very different picture than something on the screen that’s pornography. Us, made in God’s image, it’s a completely different picture. And what happens as we yield our thought to what God has done, something wonderful happens. It brings the power of God. It’s way beyond human will. It now brings the power of God to bear on everything we think about, our whole world, including things in our building, and things just in our neighborhood, or in our country. It’s that real image. I’ve been thinking about that so much, because you know for somebody who studies the Bible a lot—a lot of our listeners I think probably have spent some time in the Bible—that idea of God’s image and likeness, that just rolls off our tongues so easily, and I’m wanting to explore that more and more. Because to be the image of God, I can’t think of a better status that we all have been given, and it’s a model, really, that when we look to it, we have no urge, then, to look to anything else.

Ginny: Taking that a little bit in a direction, Mark, there’s a statement I love in Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures by Mary Baker Eddy—I study that to help me understand the Bible—where a passage says, “We must look deep into realism instead of accepting only the outward sense of things” (p. 129). And at one point, looking deep into realism, I was talking to an individual who was kind of hung up on pornography stuff, and we kind of thought about: Is it the physical breast that was so interesting? And he said, “No, that’s just molecules.” And we began to really think about, well, what’s behind that is, maybe a sense of nurturing and motherhood and tenderness and spiritual qualities that this young individual was looking for. So we began to look at those qualities, those wonderful spiritual qualities that, in its right sense, maybe the body parts would even represent, and study those, and get close to those qualities. He began to feel that those were part of his nature as the child, as you said, of God’s qualities, of God’s creating. So it’s not ignoring the situation but looking deep into realism that really made a difference in his experience.

Mark: You’ve just hit on the first building block, then. Let’s look deep into realism. In other words, look deep into the way God has created us, and beholding the qualities, like you say, literally the spiritual qualities God is expressing in ourselves, and in others, moment by moment. Now that’s a powerful building block right there. That’s a good foundation.

Rosalie: Now, I’d like to jump in here, because we’ve been sort of a little bit all over the place here, and I think it might be good to be very specific about the difference between matter and Spirit, because you have been referring to people as “a hunk of stuff” and things like that. Maybe the two of you could just present some comments on what matter and Spirit are, particularly in relation to seeking healing.

Mark: Go for it.

Ginny: Well, to me, matter is what we see with our senses and what we touch and taste. It’s the one-dimensional concept of life. Spirit is the qualities behind the dimension. Matter would be like a hand, just as we see it, which might express maybe color and form, but when it picks up a kitten, and it pets the soft fur, it expresses a spiritual quality called tenderness or gentleness. And that essence, that spiritual nature of that hand, is its substance, is what makes it a reality. So “. . . the substance of an idea,” again, Mrs. Eddy says “is very far from being the supposed substance of non-intelligent matter” (p. 257). So there’s a substance there where the hand is, but it’s spiritual, it’s Godlike, it’s made of God’s qualities, not of molecules that are killable or deplete-able or limited.

Rosalie: Great, that’s very helpful.

Mark: Perfect.

Rosalie: Now this next question is a little bit long. It’s: “Sometimes these issues like unhealthy sexual fantasies or browsing internet porn, seem occasional and separate from my main living of my life. I can experience spiritual growth, help others, have a marriage, etc., and this other habit is a secret—some part of me that I don’t love, but that doesn’t seem to destroy me. If these habits don’t seem to consume me all the time, it can be easy to convince myself they aren’t much of a problem--at least not all the time. And yet, right after I’ve been in that place mentally, or viewed something, I feel terrible, and know in my heart how much I want to stop. But then I move on and move my good, giving life for awhile, and I like to think it’s OK. How can I break the cycle? How can I feel committed to changing beyond those moments of remorse afterward, and feel it’s enough of a problem to continue working and praying, even when things go back to normal?”

Ginny: Can I speak to this one?

Mark and Rosalie: Sure.

Ginny: Grandma taught me how to knit when I was a little girl. She was good, and every once in a while I would drop a stitch when I was learning, and she insisted that I learn how to pick up that stitch I dropped, and it was a hassle because I’d have to tear out a lot of stuff. What I learned was important, because if I didn’t pick up the dropped stitch, the whole thing could come unraveled. So she taught me that every stitch is a vital stitch in the fabric, and I think of our moments as stitches in the fabric of our life. To think that one moment isn’t important is, to me, kind of like learning how to knit. Every moment is a stitch and every one is vital, so I kind of cherish the moments because they really do make up the big picture.

Mark: Ginny, I love that. That is just a great idea. I’m never going to forget that. I’m going to get a lot of mileage out of that one!

Ginny: I never thought of it—that just came this moment. I kind of love my grandmother.

Mark: What a good idea. Well, that dropped stitch is just a moment of kind of being drawn away from God. You can tell by the person who asked the question. That person deals with remorse afterward. So that’s not a bad thing. That remorse can be useful, if you build on it, and fix that dropped stitch that causes that. The book you mentioned, Ginny,Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures, it’s a book I just live with. I spend so much time with that book, along with my Bible, because it really helps me to kind of knit correctly, I guess is the best way, keep my moments going. In one place the author, Mary Baker Eddy, she talks about “turn[ing] our gaze in the right direction, and then walk[ing] that way” (see p. 248). She says: “We must form perfect models in thought and look at them continually, or we shall never carve them out in grand and noble lives. Let unselfishness, goodness, mercy, justice, health, holiness, love—the kingdom of heaven—reign within us, and sin, disease, and death will diminish until they finally disappear” (p. 248). Now those qualities she’s talking about—“unselfishness, goodness, holiness, love”—those are good stitches. That’s the good kind of knitting.

Ginny: I think I’ve started a knitting class here! [laughter]

Mark: That’s what we’re after.

Rosalie: Spiritual knitting 1!

Mark: We want to keep—here’s another kind of aspect to that first building block. We look at that perfect model of God, and what God has done for us, how God has created us, and she says keep that model continually in thought. And if we do so, we can carve out a grand and noble life.

Ginny: I don’t know if you have another question but—

Rosalie: We have quite a few questions, actually, so we don’t want to dwell too much on this one.

Ginny: We don’t want to go too far.

Rosalie: Right.

Ginny: But there are times in people’s lives where they don’t know why they’re attracted to these things. It’s like it’s almost electrical or chemical, and I think it isn’t always something people know how to do. And I think those precious brothers and sisters need some special guidance in that area. I know that Christian Science provided a lot of my experience with guidance, where I just felt like there were certain DNA things that might be part of me that I didn’t know how to get rid of—maybe addictions because Dad was an alcoholic, or whatever. So I find that we don’t have to be bullied, even by DNA, or thought processes, or impulses. That even in those things that seem so part of us, we have the right to say, “That’s not me. I don’t buy it.”

Rosalie: OK, now we have quite a lineup of questions, so maybe one person should take the question, and if someone has something to add, but we’ve got to move along here because we’ve got a lot of questions. This is from Minnesota, and it’s: “Recently I’ve discovered that my high-school-age son was looking at some of these sites. I discussed with him that it was not appropriate, and that we need to view everyone as a spiritual idea, not just a hunk of matter. How do I go forward with confidence that he will not be tempted to do this again?”

Mark: That book I mentioned, Science and Health, has a terrific bit of guidance on that. You have the right to pray for your son, of course. Looking on—it’s actually on page 102 in Science and Health—Mary Baker Eddy mentions, “There is but one real attraction, that of Spirit. The pointing of the needle to the pole symbolizes this all-embracing power or the attraction of God, divine Mind.” Now, she uses that word Mind, with a capital M as another name for God. And so she’s talking about God as divine Mind, and really the only attraction. If I’m praying, and I yield my thought to the truth of God, the truth of divine Mind, that now embraces everyone in my experience. It goes far beyond just good counseling or good advice. Now the power of God is at work in bringing a resolution to that hungering for matter, and instead taking it to the real attraction—that of Spirit.

Rosalie: OK. Let’s move on to no name, in the USA: “This may be a kind of obvious question, but I feel like it bears discussion. Why is occasional, or even frequent, viewing of Internet porn bad? If someone functions and lives an otherwise good, normal life, what’s the problem? That’s sure the tempting argument for me, anyway, even when my hearts says there is something problematic.” I think that gets back to the knitting.

Ginny: It does. And there’s another way to look at it, and that’s real versus counterfeit. If you had a stack of hundred dollar bills, and one counterfeit, you wouldn’t every once in awhile go to the counterfeit and spend it. You just want to find out what’s real. That’s really what we’re talking about is, what’s real.

Rosalie: This is another one without a name or location: “Thank you for having this chat. This has been a problem for me for many years. Each time I feel I get some resolution, it comes back sometime. The challenge, of course, is to demonstrate that it gives no real pleasure.”

Mark: That cycle of guilt, and then back to turning to God, that’s the cycle of materiality. Falling for it, and then cleaning up your act, and then moving right to God. What’s nice is God’s love for us is constant. We can’t deprive ourselves, or God will never deprive us, of His love. In Psalms it says, “Praise ye the Lord. O give thanks unto the Lord; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever” (106:1). That mercy—it does endure forever. Does that mean, though, that what we’re dealing with has to endure forever? No. We make real progress when we fall in love with God, instead of falling in love with matter. It’s just being willing to love God in the way that Jesus talked about.

Rosalie: I was thinking, too, that to some extent it has to do with what you value, and what you value about yourself, doesn’t it? As you become more spiritually oriented, you start to value that good feeling of spirituality, of genuine love and truth and goodness, and that helps to lift you away from things that would drag you down. Is that true? What do you think, guys?

Ginny: When you’re an artist, you study, if you’re going to paint a banana, you study the banana a whole lot, a long time. Like da Vinci studied the human body from the inside out, and then he painted, because he really knew it. So, to me, “Study to shew [your]self approved unto God” (II Tim. 2:15). Just get so clear on what you are, and how satisfied you are. As the caller—you are so cherished and complete. Look up satisfaction,complete, in the dictionary, Science and Health, the Bible, until you are so clear that what you are is complete. When that comes to you, that thought that you need something else, you’ll be able to paint the picture by acting in a way that is beautiful and controlled and intelligent, which is your right. And if you don’t want to do this, you have the right not to, because you’re so satisfied. So I would really study the ideas that you’re looking for in the pornography and get them in your own thought, and then you’ll have dominion, you’ll have complete control over your feelings about wanting to do this, and you can say, “No.”

Rosalie: Right. Now this one says: “How do you keep images of sexuality from dominating your thought? Sometimes we see things inadvertently and it’s hard to erase them.”

Mark: I can completely relate to that. I know just what you’re saying. It’s so easy to just turn the channel on the TV, open up a magazine—any magazine—be online, and inadvertently there’ll be something you see that, yes, it can be quite an image. You watch like—I don’t know, video music channels, and the people there are so talented. Often they’re just terrific. But they shimmy around, giving a completely different focus to their performance than what they were feeling when they wrote the song, or whatever it was, originally. I was thinking about that, like suppose I went to the symphony, and I would be sitting there listening to the symphony and just loving it, and then what if like the First Violinist, the person right there by the conductor, stood up, and she started shimmying around like some of these people, in order for me to like her violin playing. It just wouldn’t fit. And so, like you’re saying, these things show up all the time. We have to be sure we don’t say all Internet is bad because pornography exists on it. I mean that would be like saying all magazines are bad because some magazines are pornographic. That wouldn’t make sense. But those images—the Second Commandment, it says, “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.” And so, when we think of it as an image engraved on our thought, well, once something is engraved on my thought, then there’s not room for something else. And so, early in the morning I make clear that I’m going to look at what God has me to think about. I have done that for very, very, many, many, many years. And that then is what I—I just go on the strength of that for the whole day.

Ginny: I know we’re supposed to wait, but I’ve gotta put this in here.

Mark: Go for it.

Ginny: That’s what I gave as a foundation—God created man in His own image, so there’s another image in your consciousness of that individual, even. I mean, if you see somebody doing something that’s not their nature, what you’re seeing is a distorted image. And you can go back to what is the image of God right there in that place right at this moment.

Mark: And let that, then, be engraved on your thought.

Ginny: Yeah, and just treat it as a suggestion—kind of an aggressive mental suggestion about that dear man or woman—that they’re not outside of the image that God made them to be. And you become part of the solution, rather than impressed or just having to turn the page. You can mentally just really turn the page in your thought.

Rosalie: OK. “Is there a cycle of these activities reoccurring in families, when the person who suffered himself from abuse seems to do it all over again?”

Ginny: I did get into the tail end of the last one, but I’ll start this one off. I really find, in healing, it’s essential for me to pray to know that DNA “Does Not Apply”—and that’s DNA. Because that’s probably one of the toughies where people have told me once they’ve had this healing of addiction to this kind of thing, that their dad or their mom or their grandparents, or someone—and that they’ve suddenly realized this was a pattern. And so, I’ve found breaking that pattern, just mentally insisting I do not have DNA from mortality, that there’s one Father, one Source of me, and that’s infinite Love, Mind, as God, as Mrs. Eddy defines God as divine Mind, gives me my thought patterns. So we can break out of that repetitive DNA activity, and really firmly, mentally—and I do this almost every morning—“I am not a DNA product, I’m the reflection of God’s qualities.”

Rosalie: That’s great. This one is from New Hampshire: “It seems that one way of healing the addiction to pornography, or anything, is by having a deeper understanding of divine Love. Could you please explain the difference between what divine Love feels like in our experience, versus what human love feels like—that is, the love we have for our spouse, or even our surroundings, pets, etc.?”

Mark: Good question. I know if I say “good question” I have to say it to everybody, but that’s a good question.

Ginny: They’re all amazing, yeah.

Mark: The love you have for your spouse, or your friends, or your pets—that can be really a—that hints at God’s love. There are other kinds of things that we term as love, but they really aren’t, because they’re conditional, or they’re selfish. If you do something for someone in order to gain something for yourself, that’s conditional love. You’re doing it to gain. It’s selfish. If you’re doing what appears as love, but it’s only just to—you feel apart from God, you feel separated, it’s materialistic. That really isn’t an expression of divine Love, of God. It’s that love that doesn’t keep score. It’s a love that has no desire to gain for yourself. It’s just to be a transparency to the smile and wonder of God, to love someone without any desire to get something for yourself, it’s just totally unselfish. It’s unconditional. That’s the kind of love that God has for us, and so naturally that’s the love that we express to others. And we can feel the strength of that.

Ginny: And it’s lasting, it’s a lasting love because divine Love lasts.

Mark: That’s true.

Ginny: So it doesn’t end at the end of a session or whatever. It’s forever.

Rosalie: This is a comment rather than a question: “Low self-esteem and lack of self-worth are often factors in a person’s involvement in pornography. Mary Baker Eddy writes in her Message to The Mother Church for 1902: ‘. . . conscious worth satisfies the hungry heart, and nothing else can’ (p. 17).” Now here comes the question: “How can Christian Science help an individual gain a deeper understanding of his/her spiritual worth and value as a child of God?”

Ginny: I have to really think about who and what I am, as the expression of God’s qualities. I truly find deep thinking about the qualities of God, that may look like feet and eyes, and so on—what’s behind all of this stuff is a value and makes me an individual. It’s really important not to just kind of generally know I’m God’s idea, but what does that mean, “in earth, as it is in heaven”? So I find when Mrs. Eddy on, I think it’s on page 269, she says, “Metaphysics resolves things into thoughts, and exchanges the objects of sense for the ideas of Soul.” We can do that when it comes to ourselves as individuals—see that we’re expressions of intelligence when we write a story, or expressions of affection when we hold hands. But that we’re truly the essence, the expression of God’s nature, in every activity we express that is from our sense of love, from and for God. So we’re more than just abstract, spiritual ideas. We’re right here, right where the material claims to be, we have our identity. It’s whole and good and spiritual.

Mark: That hole in people’s lives where they just feel they don’t have the worth that other people have, that self-worth issue, so often it’s healed quickly through acknowledgment of our oneness with God. It’s not like man and God are the same thing, but as cause and effect, they’re really at one. If you feel separate from God in any way, I promise you just won’t feel good enough, because you’re going to be on your own. But as soon as you acknowledge the oneness you have with God, well, then, everything’s right. So often I just love to—I sometimes do this just in my house—I’ll walk from room to room in the house, and I’ll just acknowledge God’s presence, and then, gently feel my oneness with God. And that’s just so strengthening. It just is so right.

Rosalie: This one says: “I’m addicted to masturbation. I don’t know how to come over it. I am also addicted to porn.”

Ginny: Which one of us? I don’t remember whose turn it is.

Rosalie: I think Mark was the last one.

Ginny: Go ahead Mark.

Mark: Any addiction is often where your eyes are not on God. It’s just looking at yourself as a physical being, and you’re looking towards more physicality to give you what you’re missing. It could be food, it could be sex, it could be shopping. It can be all kinds of things, but it’s where your eyes are not on God. Instead, your eyes are on mortality, materiality. Now most people who have had healings from addiction—alcoholism, that kind of thing—so often they’ll tell me how it was only through the power of God that they were able to break it. Just trying it on their own, trying to make it just with human will, just wasn’t good enough. Turning to God was the start.

Ginny: Just because this is—I wasn’t sure—I’m going to throw a little bit, but sometimes in my cases I’ve seen people are trying to find, like you mentioned earlier Mark, a sense of fatherhood or motherhood, something that seems to have been robbed—taken from them when they were young. And I like to know that fatherhood is a quality that never walks out, and that motherhood is a quality of God’s nature that is forever nurturing. So I find that I’ve needed in my healing of addiction, through whatever, to know that I can revise the mortal concepts I carry around of my past, by understanding that in the moments when I didn’t feel father qualities were in my life, they were there. I just didn’t hear the music of God’s fatherhood, but it was always with me. So if you’re finding you’re starving after, in this case, a feeling of satisfaction through masturbation, you might know that in the past, and in the present, you are so loved and so cared for, and that nobody ever left you.

Mark: Oh, that’s so good. You know, I’ve known Ginny for a few years now. And if you in the audience ever saw her, you would just see someone who is just so spiritually-minded. Materiality looks like clearly it’s just no part of her past. It’s a good example of how you just are washed clean by the ideas that she’s talking about.

Ginny: OK, Mark—I’ve known Mark . . . . [laughter] You know, I don’t know who hasn’t been washed clean. We’re all in this together. Every single one of us has a dark and hidden place, because until we’re ascending, walking through walls like Jesus showed us is possible, all of us are in this together, and we need each other. Nobody’s so awful. And there’s no dark place, no hidden place, where the Christ-love can’t go and warm you up, and make you see how loved you are. But we’re all together. Nobody’s that great. Nobody’s that awful.

Rosalie: Meanwhile, back at the questions.

Ginny: Sorry.

Rosalie: No, I love what you said.

Ginny: That’s what you get for putting two of us on.

Rosalie: I wouldn’t want to do it without you both. Now this one is from New York, and says: “I have a friend who’s very troubled about the pull pornography seems to have on her fourteen-year-old son. How would you help her?”

Mark: Go for it.

Ginny: Me?

Mark: Yeah.

Ginny: Now, the woman needs help or the son?

Rosalie: The woman is concerned about the pull that pornography has on her son.

Ginny: Yeah, it’s tough being a young boy or a young girl these days because everything is out there, everything is out there. And I think just to keep the channels open, and keep talking, and maybe introducing ideas of womanhood that he might want to get more familiar with. I’ve loved the idea that each one of us is already married. The Bible says, “Your husband is your Maker” [“Thy Maker is thine husband”] (see Isa. 54:5). That we have woman and man qualities within us, and that we’re really married, we’re complete—maybe just kind of thinking about being closer to his woman qualities within his own heart, and developing those with him. Maybe make a list of woman qualities with him, and go over them, and talk. But just letting this subject be open and available to think about deeply, because once we think deeply about these ideas, the unreality of what isn’t real will come to light, and what is real will last.

Rosalie: One of the things I’m getting from the two of you is that back of all of this is the need to uplift—for example, if you’re a man and you’re sort of addicted to female pornography, so to speak, it’s to uplift your concept of what womanhood is. And then presumably ditto for women if it was in the other direction. Is that kind of what you’re saying?

Mark: Definitely.

Ginny: Well, and I’m going to go further to say to uplift your concept of what you are, as including manhood and womanhood. So you have it already. It’s not like making a list of what you want outside, but if God is Life and is everywhere, all good, then the spot you’re sitting in has all of the male and female qualities in it. There can’t be a piece of God that you’re missing. So tuning in to your own spiritual completeness then becomes like studying the banana and painting it. Once you’ve seen how complete you are, then you’re going to live it in a way that demonstrates, or proves, how you think of yourself as complete.

Mark: So for the person that asked that question, to recognize completeness in that way—that’s prayer. That’s a form of prayer, to do that in regards to her son. The very first sentence in the first chapter of Science and Health, Mary Baker Eddy says, “The prayer that reforms the sinner and heals the sick is an absolute faith that all things are possible to God . . . .”

Ginny: You could even change it—“All things are present of God.”

Mark: Well, you’re right. Do I believe, I ask myself often, “Do I believe in this case, are all things possible to God? Is this possible to be healed—do I believe that?” And it’s a challenge, but it helps give you depth to your prayer.

Rosalie: All right. This is from Seaward in Honolulu, Hawaii: “As a prison chaplain here in Hawaii, I feel certain that a recognition of being complete, and not needing anything to complete the whole idea originally created and maintained by God, can always release anyone from that false bondage of materiality, that we have mortal cravings to fill a void, whether that being an excess of food, sensuality, or any false sense of completeness, God has already made and seen all of us very good, as His image and likeness, spiritual and satisfied. We can witness that fact throughout all our activities.” That’s a nice thought, I think.

Mark: I love that.

Ginny: That’s a beautiful thought, yeah. And especially from somebody who’s having to prove it in his work.

Rosalie: Right. Now this is from someone in France: “Sometimes pornographic jokes are considered normal in many public situations, such as work, or going out at theaters. I don’t like to support those jokes by my presence or laughs, so I usually go out because I don’t want to be hypnotized and laugh with the crowd. Do you think this is helpful for one’s self and others since people are surprised by this attitude? Some would say, ‘What was wrong?’”

Mark: Yeah, they might, but again, anything in your life, anything in your experience, you have the right to pray about. And so, again, thinking about God as divine Mind, God is truly just one. There’s only one God, so there’s only one Mind. And if Mind is expressing itself, then that thought is real. If it’s not of God, not of Mind, then you do not need to give it reality or a place in your thought. Now as you do that, you’ll notice that those jokes will cease. They’ll stop. Because now you have authority in the room— but it’s not a personal authority, it’s the authority of God, the authority of divine Mind.

Ginny: There’s some thought, also, that for generations all these base, gross, underpinning thoughts were there, and now they are coming out, and everybody’s free and liberated. The sixties kind of did that, and so some folks might think this is a way of being free and liberated, which for my way of thinking is not really the way to be liberated. I get calls from people who are doing things and feeling things they never could tell anybody. And so there is an element of error, your mistakes are uncovered, but not in order to be indulged in, but to be seen as powerless. So, there’s good in the fact that this topic, for instance, is on a live chat, which it wouldn’t have been twenty years ago. So there is an element of it’s OK to bring these things to somebody to pray with, or to expose some of these thoughts that we might be having, but not to be impressed or overwhelmed with them. And they sometimes come out as jokes, because people don’t know what else to do with them. But then to go the next step and see that they’re not the legitimate consciousness of man who is loved.

Rosalie: Now this is a good question coming on the heels of all that we’ve been talking about. Joe in Boston says: “You make it sound so simple. But it really doesn’t seem that easy—shaking these images, feeling satisfied and complete by reading and studying. It just doesn’t seem that easy.”

Mark: It’s not. Any departure from materiality is work. Ginny, you were talking about how the sixties appears like that’s the time of freedom, and this is just all that’s in us, and it’s coming out. I think that physicality, materiality—we’re just educated into being entranced with it. That false education, it takes work to break. Again, Mary Baker Eddy talks about in Science and Health, she says: “The habitual struggle to be always good is unceasing prayer. Its motives are made manifest in the blessings they bring,—blessings which, even if not acknowledged in audible words, attest our worthiness to be partakers of Love” (p. 4). So, it’s a habitual struggle. It’s kind of moment by moment, stitch by stitch—as your knitting. It is work, because most of the people around you aren’t working that way. They’re just lazily flowing along with that false education. And when you’re going to break free, it’s going to take a lot of work. But your love for God will give you that power to do so.

Ginny: One passage that helped me, Mark, and this is my very first question, is from Science and Health, where I remember I was in some issues that I shouldn’t have been involved in, and I read this: “The sensualist’s affections are as imaginary, whimsical, and unreal as his pleasures” (p. 241). And it caught me up, that I was probably involved in stuff that was just imaginary. Imagination isn’t something. And so, if you’re involved in imagination stuff, and it’s whimsical and false, at some point you’ve got to get real. I think the bottom line is, do you want what’s real? And if you do, you may have to work for it, but at least it’s real and it’s going to last.

Rosalie: That’s great. “What would you say to men who look at pornography because they are having sex problems in their marriage, or because they are unsatisfied sexually in what may otherwise be a wonderful and loving marriage partnership?”

Mark: Well, again, we have to get back to spiritualizing and really raising our standard of what love is, of just what love is. I remember how tough it was when I was in college where people might not have had the same standards I had—you know, if my girlfriend didn’t. So I had to love her enough to keep a solid standard. I had better days than others. It’s hard to do that. Like I said, it’s a habitual struggle to do that. But again, a higher standard of love is what really helped. I knew that even if the people around me aren’t going to take that higher, unselfish standard, then I have to do it. I have to love unselfishly enough, not to have to try to gain materiality from my girlfriend. And that was a real strength. It was a spiritualizing of thought.

Ginny: We’ve got a—from the questioner—if you’re involved in a sexual act, and it’s outside of marriage through pornography, I think if you’re a prayerful person, don’t stop praying. I feel that just because we’ve gone to a direction that we don’t think is pure or spiritual, we want to bring our sense of prayer to wherever we are. You can pray at all points of your experience. To just pray that I’m complete, I’m satisfied right now, right here, no matter what this body or these nerves or my emotions are trying to tell me. I’m loved, I’m complete. And keep praying, keep applying the ideas that are in the Bible and Mrs. Eddy’s writings to your thought, even if you’re involved in something that you feel is completely opposed to what’s right, because the reality of you will exert itself. The reality of you is what you’re praying. You are complete and satisfied, and you will win the victory over that body and those feelings.

Rosalie: Thanks, Ginny. This one is covering a slightly different topic. “Perhaps you would consider strip-tease clubs a form of pornography. At any rate, I’ve been struggling with an addiction to this form of entertainment. Have managed to stay away from such places for several years, but still feel torn. Also, from a moral standpoint, this is more dangerous than printed or Internet sexual images.”

Ginny: I’ll start on this one, because you started on the other ones. I think at the base of a lot of what we’re talking about is a term that Mary Baker Eddy calls animal magnetism. And even the idea of electricity—that there are impulses that we have, biological impulses that move us, and that suddenly these attractions just hit us, and nerves and so on are somehow our masters, and that we’re at the mercy of all this stuff. It’s a pretty scary kind of way to live. I like what she says, again in Science and Health—it’s on page 393, I was just thinking about it—she says to “Take possession of your body, and govern its feeling and action. Rise in the strength of Spirit to resist all that is unlike good.” So you have the right to have a brain that works right, and nerves that only do what you say they should do. You can feel a hot potato, that’s OK, but they can’t get out of control, and tell you who you are. So there’s kind of a sense of justice in you that rises up and says, “Stop it. You are a servant-body. Do what I need you to do, and that’s all you can do.”

Mark: You know, Ginny, how did you do that? You were talking early on in the show about that freedom you gained from drug addiction. You must have felt at some time, some points, just like handcuffed to the whole thing.

Ginny: You know, I think we all do, Mark. Every human being was born. We all seem to be part of a DNA process, and either it’s attraction to stuff that we don’t want—you know, we all have that. So, for me, I just want to know what’s really going on here. What is the substance of all this? What are we here for? I didn’t want stuff that wasn’t real. I want to be able to see what Jesus showed us is here. He said, “The kingdom of heaven is [here]” (see Matt. 3:2). And what’s keeping us from seeing it, is all this limited view of life. So, for me, I love the Science of Christianity. What’s going on, and how can we discover it and experience it? So, it was a sacrifice of self—“I want to do this, and I want to do that”—for the big picture: “What are You doing? Where do I fit into it?”

Mark: Well, how did you stick with it then after making that huge shift?

Ginny: I didn’t, I didn’t. I fell down lots of times. And then I just found that there was the grace of God that picked me up, and brushed me off, and said, “OK, honey, keep going.” And gradually the steps have become a little easier. But I didn’t. In fact, that’s the scary part. You look around and you’re thinking, “My gosh, I’m still God’s child, even though I make these mistakes.” Well, the point for me in the Bible that saved my bacon is Jesus stood next to the woman taken in the midst of adultery. And that was the place where the Christ came, right where that suffering woman was about to be killed. And it stood next to her. So we’re not alone in this. The Christ-presence, God’s love, is standing next to us, even in the midst of this horrendous experience we’re having. And it’s freeing us from condemnation of others, from ourselves, and it’s showing us how to “Go, and sin no more,” or don’t make the same mistake. But it’ll do it forever. We’re chosen—all of us.

Mark: No wonder, no matter how bad you feel, you say to keep praying.

Ginny: Yeah, “Wherever you are, and whatever you’re doing, God got there first,” is kind of my savior. God is the first, and the only, and there’s nothing else, so it gives me great hope when I make mistakes. And I make a lot of them.

Rosalie: Well, I just want to say that we’re going to extend the chat because we’re just about at the end of our regular time, but I’d like to have a brief break here to read a comment from someone who has quoted Science and Health. And this quotation is: “When mortals once admit that evil confers no pleasure, they turn from it. Remove error from thought, and it will not appear in effect” (pp. 39-40). Now, if you’d like to exploreScience and Health some more on your own after the chat, we have a copy—Science and Health is on the Website, and it’s a searchable copy, so please feel free to investigate some of the things that Mark and Ginny have been talking about, as well as some of the quotations we’ve read from people on the chat. I’d also like to mention that there are a number of articles on spirituality.com that you might find helpful to look at after the chat. Right on the home page you’ll see an article by someone who found freedom from obsessive sexual thoughts, and if you click on the word explore on the website, you’ll find a listing of topics, one of which is relationships. And there are a number of articles in that section that might be helpful. One that relates directly to this subject is, “Freed from the lure of Internet pornography.” So I’m just offering those as things that you might do after the chat. But please stay with us because we have a lot more questions and we’ll cover as many as we possibly can in the course of the remaining time we’ve got left. Now this one is from Seattle, Washington, and the writer says: “I’ve been struggling for years with drug/alcohol/sex addiction and it’s holding me back from fulfilling my purpose. On this chat, maybe toward the end, can we have a few moments of silent prayer to release anyone struggling from this from its grips?” I think that’s a great idea, and we’ll do that just before we come to the end. Does that sound OK to you guys?

Mark: Right.

Ginny: Sure.

Rosalie: All right. This is from Ginny in Tucson, California: “Help us to know how to pray for young people who seem to be obsessed with this Internet invasion. It seems to be so important to them and they act out what they are seeing toward others who are not inviting any of this into their experience. A nineteen-year-old man being attracted to a twelve-year-old girl, I had this uncomfortable awareness through a relative. How can we help them to see this is not appropriate?”

Mark: Sometimes when people read a book, the events in the book can become so real to them that they’re more interested in the events and the characters in the book, then they are in their own lives. With things like first-person Internet games, I’ve had people tell me that they really believed their real life is in the game, and they’re just spending the rest of their time just waiting to get back into that game. Sometimes people will even be walking through the room of a building, and they think in a way, sometimes, it just reminds them of being in the game, and they act like they’re in the game, and that’s kind of what this person’s talking about. Well, that also can be in a relationship. People will create this fictitious relationship, just in their own thought, with some person online, pictures online, and it becomes their life, their realities. That in itself, like Ginny was saying, is a departure from what’s real, from what’s actual. The only things real and actual that are going to satisfy, are that of God. Anything that God creates, that’s good and it’s real and it satisfies. Anything else is sort of a charade. It’s just fictitious.

Ginny: And this lady who’s asking how to pray, I think if you recognize that each and every child is the son or daughter or the expression of the same Parent. I’ve used the Lord’s Prayer a lot in praying. I love the ideas on pages 16 and 17 of Science and Health that Mrs. Eddy brings to the Lord’s Prayer, a spiritual interpretation. It’s helped me to think of others more clearly without being either brought to anger, which doesn’t heal, or helplessness. It’s kind of helped me keep my thought right about the young people. And then I’ve taken kids in. I’ve hired them to work in my yard, who were on the street, and tried to make a difference, if I felt led to do so, in the lives of other young people. So starting with the Lord’s Prayer gets my thought clear, especially with the spiritual interpretation, and then do something. Start a group of young people. Meet every Friday in your home and have dessert, and just begin to interact. We need to bring these ideas to practical expressions if we can or in a way that will meet the need. Or you can write for spirituality.com if you’ve got some good ideas.

Rosalie: That’s a nice thought. This is from Utah: “I have found that a lot of people think that looking at porn or adult entertainment is not a big deal since it seems like a personal choice. But in the Sermon on the Mount Jesus says: ‘That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart’ (Matt. 5:28). Is looking at porn breaking this commandment?”

Ginny: Why in the heck do we call it “adult entertainment”?

Mark: Good question!

Ginny: I mean when did adults become the ones who were interested in something that is less than beautiful or real? It’s not adult entertainment, really. It’s non-thinking entertainment, non-real entertainment. And it’s not even entertaining, because there’s nothing that deepens you when you’re involved in porn. It’s just a repetition of behavior that doesn’t go anywhere. So I just don’t like to keep doing the same thing over and over that doesn’t go anywhere. It’s like spinning in circles. So if you want to go somewhere, I just think there’s a better place to go in my moments, than getting caught up in something that is completely whimsical and not even real.

Mark: I love what Jesus said there in that Sermon on the Mount, when he talks about looking on a woman lustfully and committing adultery in your heart. Here he was, traveling around with twelve disciples, twelve men. And he obviously had seen how they acted towards women sometimes, or maybe what they talked about in public—that’s my guess. You picture Peter hearing that, when he was listening to that Sermon on the Mount, and he probably looked at the ground—I don’t know, I’m just guessing. But even though he makes that point, that even if you’ve committed adultery in your heart if you even look on another woman to commit sin with her, well, that would make you feel awfully bad. But it was Peter and other disciples who did great healing work afterwards—in fact, even raising the dead. And so, even if you’re starting out in kind of a tough place, a materialistic place, that does not preclude you from contributing in a very positive way in this world.

Ginny: Yeah, Paul’s a good example, too.

Rosalie: Now this is kind of a difficult question. It’s from David in New York: “Since different cultures view pornography differently, for example cultures which use Sharia law would see much of Western female business attire as pornographic, do you have a metaphysical definition of pornography? Also, since addiction is an extreme, debilitating use of something, do you see the possibility of moderate, healthy use of pornography and cybersex?”

Ginny: I—you want this one, Mark?

Mark: Either way.

Ginny: Since she said it was difficult! I don’t think there’s anything that substitutes for seeing the identity of an individual. Their makeup, how they dress, their sexual orientation—all the things that we look at on this earth and judge each other by, pale in comparison with that statement that God saw every thing that he had made and it is very good and made in His image, so those things all do change and they all fade, from one country to the next. The monks in Thailand can’t even touch a woman in any form. So I’ve seen a little bit of it, but what I find is really at the heart of all this is, what is man? What are we? What are we made out of? And is that worth sacrificing a concept of man as matter, or stuff, for? Is it worth letting go of a little bit of our concepts of each other as just molecules for? And digging deep and looking beneath the surface to discover: Who are you, and where do you come from, and what’s the light of your life? I think that’s the deeper issue is—What am I? Am I made in the image of an incredible Love, and do I know how to express that with those around me? I think it’s a great question, but the depth of the whole thing is what, to me, is inspiring and worth looking at.

Mark: Yeah, I think you’re right. It’s not really to be judged on the level of a culture. If a behavior or a direction of thought leads you toward God, if you feel closer to God, then it’s good. If it’s leading you away, no matter how you define it, or what culture, if it leads you away, then it couldn’t be. A definition of that materialism, pornography, the Bible just talks about carnal-mindedness. And carnal, it has its root in body. The word for meat in Spanish is carne. And carnal-mindedness—you know, man as matter, like you’re saying, I mean you can tell from listening to all three of us this last hour, that it’s clear in our voices we have a great love for man’s spiritual nature, for the way that God has done His work. And man, as matter, is not in that picture. It’s just not part of God’s image. I hope that everyone can feel how substantial it is to look towards God, moment by moment, and be drawn towards what’s spiritual and real.

Rosalie: And that’s a great line for this question from Seattle, Washington: “In that moment that I feel the pull, what can I do in that moment to challenge it and ward it off?”

Ginny: I’m just going to give a kind of a thing that I find helpful, like Mark walked around and thought about what he was grateful for in every room, I’ve done kind of the same thing. I’ve written down spiritual qualities that I’ve seen, and given thanks for them. Before you act on something that you feel is controlling you, and you don’t want to act on it—even if you want to act on it, you want to not act on it in your heart—you can actually take a moment, and think of the things in your life that you love, and translate them into qualities. Like, I’m grateful for this car because it expresses mobility and freedom. Thank You. I’m grateful for my little granddaughter, she expresses innocence and purity. Thank You. And kind of turn thought in a more spiritual direction. If you can just do that with five items—spiritualize your thought—it will kind of break the mesmerism of being attracted to something that you don’t want to be attracted to. You’re taking possession of the body of your thought that way.

Rosalie: There are two questions here that relate to sexuality that I think we ought to answer. I’ll give them both to you because they’re related. “St. Paul said, famously, ‘. . . it is better to marry than to burn’ and that’s from First Corinthians [7:9]. Mary Baker Eddy writes in Science and Health that ‘Marriage should . . . [be] a barrier against vice . . .’ (p. 60). Can your speakers comment on the role of sexuality within marriage?” That’s question number one. Question number two is: “Are we speaking against sex?” It says: “Is sex a sin. Is the goal not to have sex?” And I think those are things that would help to clarify some of these issues.

Mark: Well, a goal not to have sex, you might think in your growth Spiritward that you might have a goal not to eat, and not to be fed by matter, but to be fed by God. Now, I promise you ultimately I’m going to get there. I will. And that is my motive, it’s my purpose. Mary Baker Eddy says in Science and Health: “The purpose and motive to live aright can be gained now. This point won, you have started as you should. You have begun at the numeration-table of Christian Science, and nothing but wrong intention can hinder your advancement. Working and praying with true motives, your Father will open the way” (p. 326). So, I want to recognize myself in God’s image. I want to see that more than anything. I want to see it with all my heart. That’s my purpose, that’s my motive. I know that as I take it step by step, that my Father will open the way for me to do that. And it’s a day-by-day, step-by-step-thing. Someone said to me a few months ago, he said, “Mark, things just come easy for you, don’t they?” And without thinking, I said, “Yeah, I guess so.” And you know afterwards, it really got me thinking, because it’s just not that way at all. It does take an incredible amount of work, a focus of thought, a clear love for God, and doing that, day by day by day actually then makes it look easy, but it is an accumulation of a lot of good, hard work. So that purpose and motive to live aright, it can be gained now. And that’s the important part.

Ginny: I’m going to jump in now.

Mark: Go for it.

Ginny: I’m going to jump in, because Mrs. Eddy has this incredible chapter on “Marriage.” She doesn’t have a chapter in Science and Health on celibacy, she has one on marriage, which to me is so kind, because marriage can encompass a lovely, wonderful, full sexual experience for some couples. Other couples get married and have sex only to have children, and other couples marry just for the companionship and don’t have sexual experiences. But, to me, the kindness in this chapter, and some of the things that are in it are: “ ‘She that is married careth . . . how she may please her husband,’ says the Bible; and this is the pleasantest thing to do” (pp. 58-59). And I often say in my lectures this probably means more than making pancakes. So there’s probably an element of pleasing, caring, cherishing, nurturing, and caring for each other’s human needs which she says, “Divine Love . . . meet[s] every human need” (p. 494). In this wonderful process of unfolding God’s nature within our own thought as we pray and grow, like Mark said, but with that high goal in mind, you’ll love each other appropriately, and in a way that meets each other’s needs in marriage. And, for me, this has been a big part of overcoming fear of men, because of some things I went through as a little girl with dad, and so marriage is a place I learned to trust. And I learned to let go of fear, and, for me, this is a vital part of being a woman. So I don’t think sex in marriage could possibly be outside of the realm of spiritual growth. It may be a step. And for some it may take many, many years of having sexual relations, and maybe in this lifetime they won’t stop having them. But that’s not the basis, like Mark was saying, of the heart’s desire, because the ultimate goal, in my experience, is not good sex. It’s to be able to ascend and to walk through walls and feed the multitude and raise the dead, like Jesus showed us.

Rosalie: You’ve almost answered the question that will be our last one. It’s from no name in New York: “What if my sexual relationship with my husband has tended to emulate some of the scenarios or feelings found in Internet pornography? We may feel like it’s OK because there’s nothing technically wrong about it. It’s not porn. We’re not watching porn. We’re having sex within marriage, etc. And yet, should we be trying to rise above those kinds of lustful fantasies, and purify our sex life? We’re still believing in trying to satisfy those pornographic cravings, in a way, right?”

Ginny: We can both do this one, Mark. Never stop praying, even in the middle of a sexual act. Keep praying that you’re satisfied, you’re whole, you’re complete, and you’re not made out of matter, which is limited and dies and so on. But you’re made of spiritual qualities which are forever, and you’ll have a more lasting sense of yourself and your husband or wife. And that, for me, is always bring spiritual understanding to every human aspect of your thought and your life.

Mark: Good. That’s so good. I think that anything that nurtures your husband or wife, anything that is a nurturing love, is genuine love. That which doesn’t, is just hollow. It’s not true love.

Rosalie: OK. Well, Ginny, do you have some final comments?

Ginny: Yeah, I do. This last couple weeks—I’m from the Northwest part of the United States, and we’ve had this bird that every year in the springtime, and it’s spring out here now, comes back to the windows, and pecks all over the windows. And for like two weeks this thing—we close the shades and it goes to another window, and I assume it’s looking for its mate. And eventually after a few weeks, it gives up. And I was thinking about that in light of this talk on cybersex and pornography, that that precious bird, and it’s beautiful, is looking for something but it just isn’t in the window. And I’m always heartened to see that it finds what it needs, thank goodness. My windows get pretty messy in the process, however this beautiful bird finds what it needs, and always has a few little birds that grace my yard. But that process of finding what you need is such a joyous thing to know that God always meets every human need, and that God’s love is there, and that we can turn in the right direction to find that the heart and all the things we need are satisfied by the love of God.

Mark: Hmm, I love it. Originally we talked about building blocks, and that foundational building block, for me, is God’s image. We’ve talked a lot about that. And instead of it being images of man as matter, it’s the image of God that we love. That’s what we’re drawn to, that’s what we’re attracted to, and it’s worth it to explore the Bible and to explore Science and Health, explore spirituality.com, and learn more about the nature of God, and God’s image. And help make it established as the basic building block on how you see yourself and other people.

Rosalie: Thank you, both. Now let’s fulfill our promise, and spend one moment of silent prayer.

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